I feel so DUMB! I forgot RULE NUMBER ONE OF COMPONENT AUDIO: First, unplug all the connectors and plug them back in again. Perhaps this has become less important now that most people have A/C. We don't use ours much, and there were only four days in August when it didn't rain, no two in a row. The air was quite humid the whole time. So if I come here begging for help again next summer, please remind me of Rule Number One.
All that really means is someone replaced the diode and / or capacitor "Ladder" (Voltage Multiplier circuit that get the bias voltage up to 5000vdc).
Most of the time not necessary, but no harm in replacing as long as the correct diodes and caps are used...
The Medallion interfaces are the better interfaces, and all that means is the High Frequency and Low Frequency transformers are a special design. I believe all else (including Bias Circuit) is same as non medallion interface...
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something to keep in mind.
now, does the 1+1 really image better than the 2+2? just ~3db less efficient/less max spl, due to 4 panels vs 8? what about in a large room? ~26x38x8.5? they would be crossed over electronically at 60-100hz (depending on what sounds best) to subwoofers; this should help w/driving the acoustats, yes?
thanks again,
doug s.
now, does the 1+1 really image better than the 2+2? just ~3db less efficient/less max spl, due to 4 panels vs 8? what about in a large room? ~26x38x8.5? they would be crossed over electronically at 60-100hz (depending on what sounds best) to subwoofers; this should help w/driving the acoustats, yes?
thanks again,
doug s.
I disagree with a few here - I would take the 2+2 over 1+1 any day of week (providing I have the room).
My 2 cents
* 2+2 is easier load on the amp
* 2+2 run Full Range better with 4 panels and needs no Sub (methinks)
* 2+2 "Fills" the room unlike any other speaker, maybe a monster Soundlab
* I think any ESL capable of doing good, deep, convincing bass is well worth
the money
* I think any ESL capable of being driven HARD without damage is well worth
the money.
* 2+2 is robust - damn near indestructible... 1+1 will blow your amp before
the speakers get affected...
* Cost differential from 1+1 and 2+2 may not be much....
I have delicate Quad ESL-988 now and I always worry about damaging them - As the adage goes - they need 100 watts to sound perfect, and 101 watts to destroy them. But I love them!! Still have a pair of 2+2 with Medallions in storage...and a pair of 1+1 too (no interfaces)
My 2 cents
* 2+2 is easier load on the amp
* 2+2 run Full Range better with 4 panels and needs no Sub (methinks)
* 2+2 "Fills" the room unlike any other speaker, maybe a monster Soundlab
* I think any ESL capable of doing good, deep, convincing bass is well worth
the money
* I think any ESL capable of being driven HARD without damage is well worth
the money.
* 2+2 is robust - damn near indestructible... 1+1 will blow your amp before
the speakers get affected...
* Cost differential from 1+1 and 2+2 may not be much....
I have delicate Quad ESL-988 now and I always worry about damaging them - As the adage goes - they need 100 watts to sound perfect, and 101 watts to destroy them. But I love them!! Still have a pair of 2+2 with Medallions in storage...and a pair of 1+1 too (no interfaces)
I agree with john65b and would add that the amp is everything with Acoustats. In one system, I'm running an NAD C275BEE into 1+1s (actually DIY "0.88+0.88s made from leftover 8" panels) and they have impressive bass in a relatively small room, almost too much. In another system I have a YBA Integre DT into 2+2s and it does a great job driving them. I have no desire for subwoofers in either system. In the past, a pair of PS Audio "Blocks" as they were called (160W into 8 ohms bridged(bad idea)) actually caught fire driving Model 3s, but they sounded good until the amps' transformers were consumed by fire.
What's an Apollo Model?
Yes, the 1+1 and 2+2 interfaces are interchangable. You will need to move the "tap" from a 2 panel (1+1) to a four panel (2+2). The taps are inside the interface. You just move a wire to the correct location.
Steve's - Forum - Acoustat - 8, Interfaces, taps on audio transformer
Yes, the 1+1 and 2+2 interfaces are interchangable. You will need to move the "tap" from a 2 panel (1+1) to a four panel (2+2). The taps are inside the interface. You just move a wire to the correct location.
Steve's - Forum - Acoustat - 8, Interfaces, taps on audio transformer
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sorry, my bad; not sure what i was thinking. i meant spectra, not apollo.
thanks,
doug s.
thanks,
doug s.
i had also queried roy esposito, and got this answer:
"----Spectra 22, 2200, 33, 3300, 44,4400, 66 and 6600 interfaces
are all Medallion by design. (Spectra 11 or 1100 are not)
You can use them with the classic (Non-Spectra) panels
but you would only connect the speaker such as 2+2 or 1+1
to the Blue and White and Red interface output connections.
A 22 or 2200 Spectra interface can match with Model 1+1
A 44 or 4400 Spectra interface can match with Model 2+2
However....physically ...Spectra interface size dimensions are way different
compared with MK121 interfaces. The panel-to-interface connectors
are different too....so some soldering or adapting would be required."
thanks,
doug s.
"----Spectra 22, 2200, 33, 3300, 44,4400, 66 and 6600 interfaces
are all Medallion by design. (Spectra 11 or 1100 are not)
You can use them with the classic (Non-Spectra) panels
but you would only connect the speaker such as 2+2 or 1+1
to the Blue and White and Red interface output connections.
A 22 or 2200 Spectra interface can match with Model 1+1
A 44 or 4400 Spectra interface can match with Model 2+2
However....physically ...Spectra interface size dimensions are way different
compared with MK121 interfaces. The panel-to-interface connectors
are different too....so some soldering or adapting would be required."
thanks,
doug s.
Sorry, I should have clearer. The MK121 interfaces ARE interchangeable between the 1+1 and 2+2, but as Andy states, the Spectra interfaces are not interchangeable with the MK121 series.
Clear as mud?
Yes......Acoustat Medallion Transfomers an Spectra & 3/5 wire Panels an Parts For Sale - US Audio Mart
or email me here.....thanks
or email me here.....thanks
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Some of the important quotes (for my situation) I saved, with a few questions sprinkled in:
— — — main message — — —
Hello all. Firstly, Thanks to you, AAM, for all of the years of time and effort. (And, thank you for not letting the trolls get you down for too long. I don't know why they bother and why some persist but thanks for continuing to forge ahead. I also don't know why they think it's not obvious who is and isn't posting valuable information.)
I have managed to read back to page 137 from the end after getting through some 30+ pages from the beginning. I haven’t been able to read them all yet but plan to. Time is pressing, though, for me to ask a few questions since a potential sale of Acoustats is in the works.
I was pleased to learn of the robustness of the Acoustat ELS panels (as opposed to the Spectra 11 woofer, for instance — or the Magnepan Tympani), due to, for instance, designing them to resist corrosion damage. That alone seemed to make a 2+2 set a worthwhile used purchase, despite their age and various design tradeoffs (e.g. narrow horizontal dispersion, lack of the Medallion transformer, requirement for a strong amp, lack of a company to send them to for rebuilds, high weight and difficulty of transport, etc.).
However, the thing that most concerns me is your comment about the low-frequency transformer being prone to arcing due to breakdown from long-term exposure to high voltages. I believe you said, early in the topic, that the pre-Medallion units are more prone to the problem. The seller told me that he had had a number of panels fail already “from playing them too loud” and told me the transformers aren’t replaceable. I assume, based on the reading of this thread I’ve done, that that’s not 100% accurate but close enough, due to the difficulty and expense of replacing the transformer. If the low-frequency transformer is degraded from cumulative high voltage exposure then any reasonable volume could be “too high”, correct?
He told me to always have the volume all the way down, “in case the amp fails”. But, it sounds like it’s also a matter of “in case the speaker’s transformer fails”.
I am sure you did answer this but if you could give me a yes or no on this question I’d really appreciate it. “Is it possible to replace the LF transformer before it arcs and causes damage to the speaker and/or to the amp without that costing more than $800?” I assume the answer is no.
You said the arcing can cause damage to an amp. The other thing I discovered from all of the reading is how hard it is to find an inexpensive class D amp to power a 2+2 reliably and with enough power to get their true dynamic range. I believe you said amps that lack enough power, like some of the tube models people have used, cause flabby/flaccid bass and that 250 watts per channel is what a person should aim for.
I looked for the Hafler 9500 and none are on sale on the auction site and I didn’t see any if the completed listings either. I looked into that Denon that was suggested and into other Denon models. Either they were audiophile-type monoblocks with very high prices or they were home theater equipment that wasn’t apparently good enough. Some were from Japan and only have 100 volts. So, Denon seemed to be a dead end, too. Someone suggested the PS Audio HCA-2. So, I looked on the auction site for that and… nothing. I realize that vintage/discontinued equipment can be tricky to find but I thought it wouldn’t be that hard to find something.
I was planning on buying a powerful class D China-made amp, since most everything is made there these days and is made class D. But, not only have I read that those amps don’t have much lifespan, due to poor-quality circuit boards and other issues — they don’t seem to be capable of handling the low impedence, high voltage, high wattage requirements of the Acoustats.
I read many times that the 2+2 is easier to drive than the 1+1, due to there being more panels. But, I don’t really know, in terms of amp spec numbers, what that means.
I have a very limited income which is why audiophile-grade full range speakers for $600 were so appealing. However, if they’re time bombs that will not only likely fail in short order but also potentially damage an amp I can’t quite afford but would have to stretch to afford regardless… that doesn’t seem so good.
I also read your comments that the speakers should always have the interfaces removed before they’re moved. Well, the seller’s comments indicated that he moves them around his house without doing that and I bet he has transported them without taking them apart as well. He talked about how strong the panels are — without mentioning the panel to interface connection strength issue at all. The only reason disassembly came up is because I brought it up after we had talked quite a bit about strategies for me moving them.
So, I am concerned that there is damage to the internals from them being moved incorrectly and I am concerned with the low frequency transformer arcing. I’m also trying to figure out how I can power these without spending a ton on amplification.
If I could afford it I was looking at the Magnepan 3.7i — a “good enough” system (when compared to the stuff that costs >$10,000) that has all the benefits of a warranty and a company that continues to exist and support its old producfts. But, I can’t afford that. At the same time, I can’t afford to buy an “inexpensive” white elephant that’s going to fail in a short time and possibly take out an expensive amp in the process.
Is the solution to the problem to patch over it by using an external crossover and a sub (optimally two, if one’s budget permits) to take the strain off of the LF transformer? Would this also reduce the amp strength requirement for powering the 2+2, since bass is so power hungry? I would like to avoid amps that have fans (due to added noise), that have to be rebuilt or which will break down (e.g. tubes), and amps that will act like strong space heaters.
Any further help (beyond all of your posts already) is greatly appreciated.
Should it be placed on its edge instead when shipping? Guidance about moving them would be very helpful. Bubble wrap? Cardboard? Should the panels be shipped lying flat or on their sides?
Is that a Spectra issue (with the external power supply) or do I need to have the bias of the each of the 2+2 panels checked?
Can you suggest an inexpensive class D amp that is enough to get the full sound quality from a pre-Medallion 2+2 that has not had the C mod? If I get these speakers I am leaning toward getting that C mod done. I realize that upgrading to Medallion is not cost effective. They are the 5 wire version.
— — — main message — — —
Hello all. Firstly, Thanks to you, AAM, for all of the years of time and effort. (And, thank you for not letting the trolls get you down for too long. I don't know why they bother and why some persist but thanks for continuing to forge ahead. I also don't know why they think it's not obvious who is and isn't posting valuable information.)
I have managed to read back to page 137 from the end after getting through some 30+ pages from the beginning. I haven’t been able to read them all yet but plan to. Time is pressing, though, for me to ask a few questions since a potential sale of Acoustats is in the works.
I was pleased to learn of the robustness of the Acoustat ELS panels (as opposed to the Spectra 11 woofer, for instance — or the Magnepan Tympani), due to, for instance, designing them to resist corrosion damage. That alone seemed to make a 2+2 set a worthwhile used purchase, despite their age and various design tradeoffs (e.g. narrow horizontal dispersion, lack of the Medallion transformer, requirement for a strong amp, lack of a company to send them to for rebuilds, high weight and difficulty of transport, etc.).
However, the thing that most concerns me is your comment about the low-frequency transformer being prone to arcing due to breakdown from long-term exposure to high voltages. I believe you said, early in the topic, that the pre-Medallion units are more prone to the problem. The seller told me that he had had a number of panels fail already “from playing them too loud” and told me the transformers aren’t replaceable. I assume, based on the reading of this thread I’ve done, that that’s not 100% accurate but close enough, due to the difficulty and expense of replacing the transformer. If the low-frequency transformer is degraded from cumulative high voltage exposure then any reasonable volume could be “too high”, correct?
He told me to always have the volume all the way down, “in case the amp fails”. But, it sounds like it’s also a matter of “in case the speaker’s transformer fails”.
I am sure you did answer this but if you could give me a yes or no on this question I’d really appreciate it. “Is it possible to replace the LF transformer before it arcs and causes damage to the speaker and/or to the amp without that costing more than $800?” I assume the answer is no.
You said the arcing can cause damage to an amp. The other thing I discovered from all of the reading is how hard it is to find an inexpensive class D amp to power a 2+2 reliably and with enough power to get their true dynamic range. I believe you said amps that lack enough power, like some of the tube models people have used, cause flabby/flaccid bass and that 250 watts per channel is what a person should aim for.
I looked for the Hafler 9500 and none are on sale on the auction site and I didn’t see any if the completed listings either. I looked into that Denon that was suggested and into other Denon models. Either they were audiophile-type monoblocks with very high prices or they were home theater equipment that wasn’t apparently good enough. Some were from Japan and only have 100 volts. So, Denon seemed to be a dead end, too. Someone suggested the PS Audio HCA-2. So, I looked on the auction site for that and… nothing. I realize that vintage/discontinued equipment can be tricky to find but I thought it wouldn’t be that hard to find something.
I was planning on buying a powerful class D China-made amp, since most everything is made there these days and is made class D. But, not only have I read that those amps don’t have much lifespan, due to poor-quality circuit boards and other issues — they don’t seem to be capable of handling the low impedence, high voltage, high wattage requirements of the Acoustats.
I read many times that the 2+2 is easier to drive than the 1+1, due to there being more panels. But, I don’t really know, in terms of amp spec numbers, what that means.
I have a very limited income which is why audiophile-grade full range speakers for $600 were so appealing. However, if they’re time bombs that will not only likely fail in short order but also potentially damage an amp I can’t quite afford but would have to stretch to afford regardless… that doesn’t seem so good.
I also read your comments that the speakers should always have the interfaces removed before they’re moved. Well, the seller’s comments indicated that he moves them around his house without doing that and I bet he has transported them without taking them apart as well. He talked about how strong the panels are — without mentioning the panel to interface connection strength issue at all. The only reason disassembly came up is because I brought it up after we had talked quite a bit about strategies for me moving them.
So, I am concerned that there is damage to the internals from them being moved incorrectly and I am concerned with the low frequency transformer arcing. I’m also trying to figure out how I can power these without spending a ton on amplification.
If I could afford it I was looking at the Magnepan 3.7i — a “good enough” system (when compared to the stuff that costs >$10,000) that has all the benefits of a warranty and a company that continues to exist and support its old producfts. But, I can’t afford that. At the same time, I can’t afford to buy an “inexpensive” white elephant that’s going to fail in a short time and possibly take out an expensive amp in the process.
Is the solution to the problem to patch over it by using an external crossover and a sub (optimally two, if one’s budget permits) to take the strain off of the LF transformer? Would this also reduce the amp strength requirement for powering the 2+2, since bass is so power hungry? I would like to avoid amps that have fans (due to added noise), that have to be rebuilt or which will break down (e.g. tubes), and amps that will act like strong space heaters.
Any further help (beyond all of your posts already) is greatly appreciated.