Thank you all for the kind words!
I have only been able to play in stereo for a day and the filter is a first version - but I'm very pleased with the sound!
When listening to other systems I have mostly reflected on the "boomy" bass compared to my hybrids.
I'm sure it's because I've been listening to dipole bass for years and have trouble with boxed systems.
When I compare my new panels to my hybrids - the hybrids now sound boxed!
Roger
I have only been able to play in stereo for a day and the filter is a first version - but I'm very pleased with the sound!
When listening to other systems I have mostly reflected on the "boomy" bass compared to my hybrids.
I'm sure it's because I've been listening to dipole bass for years and have trouble with boxed systems.
When I compare my new panels to my hybrids - the hybrids now sound boxed!
Roger
That is exactly my thought when I first heard my Apogee's and got used to them.I kringe when i'm forced to listen to a box anymore.Although my bass system is not bad at the moment with 2-12's, 4-10's and 2-8's for subsand flat from 15hz to 1000hz.I am working out some 4 foot esl's for the rest of the range for this years project.But I can't wait till I at least get my little panels hooked back up for the time being. jer
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Hi Roger,
I know exactly what you mean. I bought a pair of used Martin Logan Aerius a few months ago just wanting to compare the sound with my full range ESL. I found the sound of ML to be very boxy, and I didn't like it. They are now just sitting in my listening room gathering dust.
Wachara C.
I know exactly what you mean. I bought a pair of used Martin Logan Aerius a few months ago just wanting to compare the sound with my full range ESL. I found the sound of ML to be very boxy, and I didn't like it. They are now just sitting in my listening room gathering dust.
Wachara C.
After some listening and aligning the speakers more serious - there was trouble, -The sound stage tilted to the right !
I put on some pink noice and took a SPL measurement.
The right speaker was 3-4dB louder - not good!
To try and find the fault, I got my selfwound transformer and hooked it up seperatly to the right and then to my left panel - still 3-4dB difference!
Well, well - I'll just have to rebuild the panels in my left speaker ( this speaker was the first to be compleated and had been used to test trafos, EHTs, filters etc) -do again, do right!
Spent a half day with lamp oil peeling the panels apart and getting the foamtape off the PVC-spacers.
( Wachara: -The tape sticks like .......to PVC! )
Cleaned everything a couple off times, put on new tape and new Mylar.
With fresh panels mounted in the frames I fired upp the speakers again.
-The soundstage is still tilted to the right!
I was very confused, but the engeneer in me said that there must be a logical reason for the difference in output - and it's probably not in the panels!?
And it was'nt!
Quoting my footer, there must have been many people watching!
When you test ESL panels - test them with EXACTLY the same gear!
I used the same audio trafo as I suspected the problem to be there, but used the EHT mounted in the speaker!
I had managed to kill two diods in my left EHT-unit => the bias was abt. 600V lower on this side!
I fixed the EHT-unit and the soundstage is back to normal!
Next up is to get the XO optimized - Should I change my footer just in case?
Roger
I put on some pink noice and took a SPL measurement.
The right speaker was 3-4dB louder - not good!
To try and find the fault, I got my selfwound transformer and hooked it up seperatly to the right and then to my left panel - still 3-4dB difference!
Well, well - I'll just have to rebuild the panels in my left speaker ( this speaker was the first to be compleated and had been used to test trafos, EHTs, filters etc) -do again, do right!
Spent a half day with lamp oil peeling the panels apart and getting the foamtape off the PVC-spacers.
( Wachara: -The tape sticks like .......to PVC!
)Cleaned everything a couple off times, put on new tape and new Mylar.
With fresh panels mounted in the frames I fired upp the speakers again.
-The soundstage is still tilted to the right!
I was very confused, but the engeneer in me said that there must be a logical reason for the difference in output - and it's probably not in the panels!?
And it was'nt!
Quoting my footer, there must have been many people watching!
When you test ESL panels - test them with EXACTLY the same gear!
I used the same audio trafo as I suspected the problem to be there, but used the EHT mounted in the speaker!
I had managed to kill two diods in my left EHT-unit => the bias was abt. 600V lower on this side!
I fixed the EHT-unit and the soundstage is back to normal!
Next up is to get the XO optimized - Should I change my footer just in case?
Roger
Panels
Steel for stators: $185
Powdercoating stators: $100
Mylar 2µm and 6µm : $60
Aluminumfoil, glue etc: $50
MT-Audio coating: $10
Foam tape 1mm : $75
Frames
19mm MDF : $50
16mm MDF : $40
Black paint: $75
Stainless steel screws: $20
Rubber window seals: $20
Silicone: $10
3mm black Plexi: $150
Electronics
8 pcs 12V/240V toroids: $350
4 pcs ignition trafos: $50
2 x EHT : $100
Other
Ac filter, plug, aluminum sheet : $150
Total: $1495
Toroids, electronics and some of the other stuff I already had on my shelves, so they did not cost me.
Roger
I have a five stage multiplier, but I tap at stage 3 for the mid/high-panel and at stage 4 for the bass. The diods that were faulty were at stage 5. I still had voltage, but it was ~600V lower than normal!
I just made "auto-power-on"-cards that I hope to test run tomorow!
(tired of the kids always asking me to turn on the speakers when they want to watch TV)
Roger
Progress has been slow, but I have managed to make some panels for the speakers.
I'm also testing a "autopower-on" card but I need to adjust the trigger level.
It triggers at normal listening levels, but not at low levels. This would be nice as the TV set is located outside one of the kids bedroom!
Next up is to decide to tweak the passive filter or if I should go active!?
Roger
I'm also testing a "autopower-on" card but I need to adjust the trigger level.
It triggers at normal listening levels, but not at low levels. This would be nice as the TV set is located outside one of the kids bedroom!
Next up is to decide to tweak the passive filter or if I should go active!?
Roger
Very professional looking enclosures for you ESL interface components.
Concerning your filtering choices, have you measured your current setup to see what you have right now? Measuring the woofer panel and tweeter panel separately will let you see what corrections you might want to make to your filters. Measuring with and without the filter components will let you compare response and see if your filter is doing what you want it to.
Also, have you determined the resonance frequencies of your tweeter panel?
Does the current filter roll off sharply enough to eliminate them? you perhaps you may want to try and add a notch filter.
I know you mentioned(post #74) you had used Tombstone to measure your speakers. Tombstone does not using any gating or windowing, so you are getting a time averaged response of your speaker and the room. This can be useful for looking at overall tonal balance of the complete speaker. But, for optimizing your crossover, you want to see exactly what each panel is putting out before room reflections modify it. Since you are familiar with Tombstone, you might check out Sirp Sirp for this purpose.
Sirp lookes like a decent program but here is one that is like it and maybe has a few more features and is free!
If you have a hard time getting it then PM me your email address and I can send it to you.
Wave spectra is also another good one, as is HOLMImpulse.
I use all three of these and the work very good and are free. jer
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soft...arta-audio-analysis-software.html#post2535884
If you have a hard time getting it then PM me your email address and I can send it to you.
Wave spectra is also another good one, as is HOLMImpulse.
I use all three of these and the work very good and are free. jer
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soft...arta-audio-analysis-software.html#post2535884
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The panels frequencyresponce are abt. the same as in post #67 so I set the XO-point to ~200Hz.
My problems that I need to solve are:
1. Bass panel
The ignitiontransformers and panels form a very sharp LP-filter that start to roll off at 175Hz and at 225Hz it's ~50dB down.
My mid/high panels only have 2mm d/s, so I would like to cross over a bit higher than 200Hz.
Can I get the bandwidth of the transformers to reach 50-100Hz higher ?
Resonance of the bass panel is 50Hz, so I need some sort off notch for this, but with passive conponents the inductor gets very large => got me thinking about a active solution instead.
I have a bunch off 12V/240V toroids, so perhaps I'll try to use 6 off them for the bass panels and set the XO at 300-350Hz instead!?
2. Mid/high
Resonance frequency is 70Hz, so no problem with 200Hz XO.
The d/s of 2mm causes the film to hit the stators playing some bass intense music at high SPLs.
I'm thinking of using a over voltage protection circuit to prevent this, but it feels like it would be better to to move the XO a bit higher in frequency!?
Roger
My problems that I need to solve are:
1. Bass panel
The ignitiontransformers and panels form a very sharp LP-filter that start to roll off at 175Hz and at 225Hz it's ~50dB down.
My mid/high panels only have 2mm d/s, so I would like to cross over a bit higher than 200Hz.
Can I get the bandwidth of the transformers to reach 50-100Hz higher ?
Resonance of the bass panel is 50Hz, so I need some sort off notch for this, but with passive conponents the inductor gets very large => got me thinking about a active solution instead.
I have a bunch off 12V/240V toroids, so perhaps I'll try to use 6 off them for the bass panels and set the XO at 300-350Hz instead!?
2. Mid/high
Resonance frequency is 70Hz, so no problem with 200Hz XO.
The d/s of 2mm causes the film to hit the stators playing some bass intense music at high SPLs.
I'm thinking of using a over voltage protection circuit to prevent this, but it feels like it would be better to to move the XO a bit higher in frequency!?
Roger
I don't think there is any way to increase the bandwidth of the ignition transformers.
Yes, active notch filters certainly have their advantages for LF use.
If you can properly damp or notch the 70Hz resonance, I think a 200Hz crossover is workable. One thing you need to check though, is if output from the Bass Panel acoustically excites the Mid/high panel 70Hz resonance. If this is the case, then no matter if you have a passive or active notch filter on the Mid/high panel the 70 Hz resonance may still be a problem unless you add a similar notch filter to the Bass panel as well.
Try disconnecting the Mid/high panel and driving the bass panel with a high SPL frequency sweep around 70 Hz and see if the Mid/high panel moves in unison at its 70Hz resonance, perhaps even hitting the stators.
Hi Roger,
I'm thinking you would be better off going with an active crossover. *I
recently changed my setup from a 2-way 24/db slope analog crossover to a
Behringer DCX2496 digital unit, setup for 3-way with subwoofers on the low
band. *I now have almost infinite flexibility right at my fingertips for
not much more than what you'd pay for an active analog unit (about $300 US
dollars) and it sounds great. *The Behringer has about every feature you
could imagine: *2-way or 3-way stereo, a choice Bessel, Butterworth or
Linkwitz-Riley filters ranging from 6 to 48 db/oct with parametric EQ on
all bands, limiting capability, time-delay/auto-alignment and memory to
store and recall up to 64 settings. *Check it out.
I'm thinking you would be better off going with an active crossover. *I
recently changed my setup from a 2-way 24/db slope analog crossover to a
Behringer DCX2496 digital unit, setup for 3-way with subwoofers on the low
band. *I now have almost infinite flexibility right at my fingertips for
not much more than what you'd pay for an active analog unit (about $300 US
dollars) and it sounds great. *The Behringer has about every feature you
could imagine: *2-way or 3-way stereo, a choice Bessel, Butterworth or
Linkwitz-Riley filters ranging from 6 to 48 db/oct with parametric EQ on
all bands, limiting capability, time-delay/auto-alignment and memory to
store and recall up to 64 settings. *Check it out.
In addition to handling crossover duty, the parametric EQ should give you the capability to notch out the resonances of both the bass and mid/high panel.
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