ok rebuilding this set for almost a year now and ive really had it.
problem is efficiency drops after turning on, first 1 minute or something great efficiency then drops and have to increase amplifer until i drive them in saturation. wich sounds like distortion.
ok tried diferent coatings..
- PVA glue, worked sometimes depends on the day strange thing is on rainy days my efficiency dropped extreme. normal listening level saturation. total crap.
- Licron crystal diluted Measured above 3 Gigaohm. worked not that wel and is not crystal clear but ok. increases a version wich had resistance in the Megaohms like 20. also same result startup sounds promissing then after 1 -10 minutes efficciency dropped with 6db or something.
- Antistatic spray 100 , called a guy who repaired these units he used antistatic 100, nice clear coating hope it will stick. he had it used for a year now with no losses or stats coming back so should be safe (for at least a year) ncie coat measured around 500Meg to 1,5 GigaOhm with the batery trick. so prommissing. to bad drops also after 5 minutes.
i looked at the trannies, measured primaries and secundairs from the 2 step up trafos and the autotrafo (mirror drive). all ok. also by passed the resistors of the HV suplly at the end, and the one on the split between the tranies. no diference so they are oke.
also measures all the diodes one way the blovk other way the let current pass, so they are ok as well i think. also drove the esls without the electronics infront of the trannies mirror drive and the adjusters for high and low. same result low efficiency,so no faults there. only thin i did not check are capacitators. but can they be responsible ? on both stats ? and also sometimes they do play like they should (like with the glue) but next day they suck again.
Ok for the HV i got a ring of copper all around the stator. further i got the stators bolted together with metal bolts and nuts.
THe menbrane is not stuck to the stator, because of the silicone dots. cleaned the inside of the stator with the hv strip with alcohol.
i got a blinker between the HV strip and the HV suplly it blinks 2 times a second pretty constand rate.
here a link to the Blinker http://j.peelen.myahk.nl/blink.MOV
another strange thing is, when the efficiency is verry low and i unplug the power, it goes down in volume and then come back louder then it whas when plugged in just before i unplugged it.
anybody having an idea pls spam them, i recoated and re foiled crap speakers for like 20 times and im really done with them. if anybody has a aolution that would really make my vacation worth fidling !
problem is efficiency drops after turning on, first 1 minute or something great efficiency then drops and have to increase amplifer until i drive them in saturation. wich sounds like distortion.
ok tried diferent coatings..
- PVA glue, worked sometimes depends on the day strange thing is on rainy days my efficiency dropped extreme. normal listening level saturation. total crap.
- Licron crystal diluted Measured above 3 Gigaohm. worked not that wel and is not crystal clear but ok. increases a version wich had resistance in the Megaohms like 20. also same result startup sounds promissing then after 1 -10 minutes efficciency dropped with 6db or something.
- Antistatic spray 100 , called a guy who repaired these units he used antistatic 100, nice clear coating hope it will stick. he had it used for a year now with no losses or stats coming back so should be safe (for at least a year) ncie coat measured around 500Meg to 1,5 GigaOhm with the batery trick. so prommissing. to bad drops also after 5 minutes.
i looked at the trannies, measured primaries and secundairs from the 2 step up trafos and the autotrafo (mirror drive). all ok. also by passed the resistors of the HV suplly at the end, and the one on the split between the tranies. no diference so they are oke.
also measures all the diodes one way the blovk other way the let current pass, so they are ok as well i think. also drove the esls without the electronics infront of the trannies mirror drive and the adjusters for high and low. same result low efficiency,so no faults there. only thin i did not check are capacitators. but can they be responsible ? on both stats ? and also sometimes they do play like they should (like with the glue) but next day they suck again.
Ok for the HV i got a ring of copper all around the stator. further i got the stators bolted together with metal bolts and nuts.
THe menbrane is not stuck to the stator, because of the silicone dots. cleaned the inside of the stator with the hv strip with alcohol.
i got a blinker between the HV strip and the HV suplly it blinks 2 times a second pretty constand rate.
here a link to the Blinker http://j.peelen.myahk.nl/blink.MOV
another strange thing is, when the efficiency is verry low and i unplug the power, it goes down in volume and then come back louder then it whas when plugged in just before i unplugged it.
anybody having an idea pls spam them, i recoated and re foiled crap speakers for like 20 times and im really done with them. if anybody has a aolution that would really make my vacation worth fidling !
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You say the diaphragm is not stuck to the stators but from the symptoms it looks like it is. Can you visually confirm that it is not stuck? 100% sure?
I don't know the value of the capacitor in your blinker circuit but the blinker rate is a bit high. Did you coat the whole diaphragm or only up to the charge ring? When you plug it in does it immediately start with the same rate or does it change over time?
I don't know the value of the capacitor in your blinker circuit but the blinker rate is a bit high. Did you coat the whole diaphragm or only up to the charge ring? When you plug it in does it immediately start with the same rate or does it change over time?
its really not stucked 
, the kit shrinks a little when it dries that why it lookes like a hole and the coating here whas the licron coating hell to bring it on without those stripes, just plain ugly. the one with antistatic looks much better. my blinker capacitor is 47nF. i coated till the charge ring. taped the rest when coating whas apllied. im still wondering how grease and smoke may influance the pertinax frame in terms of conductivity. tried measureing the frame with the 9 volt block trick and measured around 30Giga Ohm, now i know this is not really a precise measurement and we know that the pertinax does conduct a little when the weather is right (humidity high) im washing the stators right now under the shower, no soap used because it conducts as well and that would screw everything up. just plain hot water. and a brush. keep you guys informed.
, the kit shrinks a little when it dries that why it lookes like a hole and the coating here whas the licron coating hell to bring it on without those stripes, just plain ugly. the one with antistatic looks much better. my blinker capacitor is 47nF. i coated till the charge ring. taped the rest when coating whas apllied. im still wondering how grease and smoke may influance the pertinax frame in terms of conductivity. tried measureing the frame with the 9 volt block trick and measured around 30Giga Ohm, now i know this is not really a precise measurement and we know that the pertinax does conduct a little when the weather is right (humidity high) im washing the stators right now under the shower, no soap used because it conducts as well and that would screw everything up. just plain hot water. and a brush. keep you guys informed.
well i got a new blink video of the washed stators(also aplied coating again because it washed away resistance)
the washed stators have a les rapid blinking as seen in the video, i counted them and aprox
3.5 blinks pers second for the non washed
and 1.3 per second for the washed stators.
http://j.peelen.myahk.nl/blink2.MOV
but time will tell because it always goes wrong after some time. the washed one is playiing louder MUCH louder then the one that is not washed and pluged in since i started the thread. so if the washed one still wins with a huge diferents tomorow. im gone wash the rest
by the way anybdy has an idea of some kind of stuff i can use to clean theme better then only water ? something that does not leave residue
the washed stators have a les rapid blinking as seen in the video, i counted them and aprox
3.5 blinks pers second for the non washed
and 1.3 per second for the washed stators.
http://j.peelen.myahk.nl/blink2.MOV
but time will tell because it always goes wrong after some time. the washed one is playiing louder MUCH louder then the one that is not washed and pluged in since i started the thread. so if the washed one still wins with a huge diferents tomorow. im gone wash the rest
by the way anybdy has an idea of some kind of stuff i can use to clean theme better then only water ? something that does not leave residue
Lots of distilled water for a final rinse would be my best guess.. Any possibility you can dehumidify the space the speakers are installed in?
If there are a lot of airborne contaminants in your environment perhaps covering them when not in use with large plastic bags might help?
Is the voltage drop mostly across the diaphragms or across the source impedance of the high voltage supply?
I could be all wet, hardly ever used planar electro-static drivers (Spent 7yrs with Maggies though) and currently have diy Onkens with horns on top so I'm not talking from any serious level of experience.
If there are a lot of airborne contaminants in your environment perhaps covering them when not in use with large plastic bags might help?
Is the voltage drop mostly across the diaphragms or across the source impedance of the high voltage supply?
I could be all wet, hardly ever used planar electro-static drivers (Spent 7yrs with Maggies though) and currently have diy Onkens with horns on top so I'm not talking from any serious level of experience.
about the voltage drop i dont know, i cant measure any of the high voltages. but good idea about the plastic bags we do have allot of trafic here wich introduces some fine dust. dehumidify is not gone work and should not be a problem, but what might have been the problem is that the stuff on the stator started to conduct more when humidity is high, wich will lead to more leakage. its just a gues though because im still not sure if this is the problem, time will tell.
It does look like the washed one is holding on pretty well right now. i really going beserk tomorow if it still workes, after a year of fidling with it over and over again, that the problem is smoke residue from the former owner and other crap. the paint whas also matt instead of really high gloss (piano gloss) dont know if nicotine and that sort of rubish conduct but it does look like it.
It does look like the washed one is holding on pretty well right now. i really going beserk tomorow if it still workes, after a year of fidling with it over and over again, that the problem is smoke residue from the former owner and other crap. the paint whas also matt instead of really high gloss (piano gloss) dont know if nicotine and that sort of rubish conduct
but it does look like it.
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Hi WrineX,
I'm still using my PVA glue formula with great success. If you want to give it a try again, you can add a little more ink or graphite powder.
However, the neon lights on my panels only blink once or twice per minute. After unplugging, the ESLs still play loud for quite sometime. Please do not coat your coating to the edges of the diaphragm. I only coat mine up to where it will contact with copper strips.
Frankly speaking, I've had the problem similar to yours before, and the problem is that my ESLs are very leaky. The neon lights on mine used to stay on, and I thought that's the way they should be. Now with the lights only blink 1 to 2 times per minute, all is fine.
Wachara C.
I'm still using my PVA glue formula with great success.
If you want to give it a try again, you can add a little more ink or graphite powder.However, the neon lights on my panels only blink once or twice per minute. After unplugging, the ESLs still play loud for quite sometime. Please do not coat your coating to the edges of the diaphragm. I only coat mine up to where it will contact with copper strips.
Frankly speaking, I've had the problem similar to yours before, and the problem is that my ESLs are very leaky. The neon lights on mine used to stay on, and I thought that's the way they should be. Now with the lights only blink 1 to 2 times per minute, all is fine.
Wachara C.
sounds to me like you have a leakage path... I am worried about the metal screws... what happens when you touch them? Get a shock? check 'em with a VTVM , one side to ground...
I would invest in a HV probe, for your VTVM (safer than a DVM, cause it won't blow up if something does go wrong) or DVM given that you have beat urself up for a year trying this... that way you can check the HV... VTVMs are almost free on ebay these days...
_-_-bear
I would invest in a HV probe, for your VTVM (safer than a DVM, cause it won't blow up if something does go wrong) or DVM given that you have beat urself up for a year trying this... that way you can check the HV... VTVMs are almost free on ebay these days...
_-_-bear
Hi WrineX,
The capacitor paralleling the neon bulb is just a small capacitor I have on hand. I don't think that it matters much. I use around 20 Mohm resisters on the path to biasing the diaphragm.
I agree with bear that the metal screws look like a leak path. I would cover the area around the holes just to make sure that the coating isn't too close to them.
Wachara C.
The capacitor paralleling the neon bulb is just a small capacitor I have on hand. I don't think that it matters much. I use around 20 Mohm resisters on the path to biasing the diaphragm.
I agree with bear that the metal screws look like a leak path. I would cover the area around the holes just to make sure that the coating isn't too close to them.
Wachara C.
Hi,
sounds very much like excessive leakage. As Wachara wrote one blink every 30secs or less is a good value (20Meg resistor, 47nF-100nF Cap and 94Volt ignition voltage of the lamp). A blink each second or even faster is definitely a sign for a lot of leakage.
If You build the thingie with bare hands a unvisible sweaty fingerprint can spoil all effort.
I wouldn´t use metal bolts for fixing. If any bolts are needed try nylon bolts.
One shouldn´t regard the diaphragm as an true insulator. It´s just the same as a coating, just with a higher resistance/longer time-constant.
If there were a material with similar mechanical properties and the right surface resistance values one needn´t any coating at all.
I found that cutting the diaphragm right along the rim of the stators often results in leakage paths. When the diaphragm was cut on the surface of the spacers, a few mm to the ´inside´ leakage typically appeared more seldom.
jauu
Calvin
sounds very much like excessive leakage. As Wachara wrote one blink every 30secs or less is a good value (20Meg resistor, 47nF-100nF Cap and 94Volt ignition voltage of the lamp). A blink each second or even faster is definitely a sign for a lot of leakage.
If You build the thingie with bare hands a unvisible sweaty fingerprint can spoil all effort.
I wouldn´t use metal bolts for fixing. If any bolts are needed try nylon bolts.
One shouldn´t regard the diaphragm as an true insulator. It´s just the same as a coating, just with a higher resistance/longer time-constant.
If there were a material with similar mechanical properties and the right surface resistance values one needn´t any coating at all.
I found that cutting the diaphragm right along the rim of the stators often results in leakage paths. When the diaphragm was cut on the surface of the spacers, a few mm to the ´inside´ leakage typically appeared more seldom.
jauu
Calvin
Thx calvin. i tried it without the bolts just by pressing, no diferents in blinking time so the bolts should be safe (also did not coat around the bolts) further more i did make some progress.
i washed my panels now with amonia diluted with water and a broom. well gues what the bucket about 5 liters whas almost brown when completed only one stator. after that i used the shower to get rid of the amonia dirty water. then dried everything.
also thought if this dirst is causing leakage on the panel it sure as hell will cause some problems on the PCB where the cascade is and the connections to he tranfsoferms. sou i cleaned them with some alcohol, phoo loads of dirty crap came off. and for the first time i power them up , right away perfect balance, so both sound the same as in volume.
can play really loud to, there remains only one problem! with bass at high volume i still have the membraan flaping to stator sometimes.
this could either be i drive them to loud. its also the point where the tranfromers almost hit saturation in the high tones so this could be just the max. or i need more dots of silicone wich can screw up my Fs. already asked many people about how many dots there shou;d be, but it looks everybody has diferent values. as i remember my speaker had 2 dots at 4th bar from up and 4th from down. can someone tell me if this is correct? MJ has every bar a dot, but uses 3 micro foil so maybe thats the diference.
also this is the ES200 not the ES100 wich has dots on all bars.
i washed my panels now with amonia diluted with water and a broom. well gues what the bucket about 5 liters whas almost brown when completed only one stator. after that i used the shower to get rid of the amonia dirty water. then dried everything.
also thought if this dirst is causing leakage on the panel it sure as hell will cause some problems on the PCB where the cascade is and the connections to he tranfsoferms. sou i cleaned them with some alcohol, phoo loads of dirty crap came off. and for the first time i power them up , right away perfect balance, so both sound the same as in volume.
can play really loud to, there remains only one problem! with bass at high volume i still have the membraan flaping to stator sometimes.
this could either be i drive them to loud. its also the point where the tranfromers almost hit saturation in the high tones so this could be just the max. or i need more dots of silicone wich can screw up my Fs. already asked many people about how many dots there shou;d be, but it looks everybody has diferent values. as i remember my speaker had 2 dots at 4th bar from up and 4th from down. can someone tell me if this is correct? MJ has every bar a dot, but uses 3 micro foil so maybe thats the diference.
also this is the ES200 not the ES100 wich has dots on all bars.
cant really say i have a microphone to do some mearurements but its not calibrated so i dont know what the spl is right now. i thin its what i should be now its quite loud. much louder then it whas, can even turn it up where i do not want to listen to it more then one song. but its mostly the mids that are screaming with these stats when played loud. just came to my computer after long listening sesion. pretty content right now, only in the last minute my membrane sucked to one stator al of a sudden. wich kind of sucks. ad more silicone or increase tension
last option means i have to redo mylar.
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