Some old reference to the subjective quality
impact of bandwith:
Handbuch der Tonstudiotechnik - Google Bücher
On page 127 there is a diagram relating subjective
quality measure in % to bandwidth.
I guess the first print of that book is from early 70`s,
and the diagramm is fairly old.
Nevertheless i always read that diagram in a way that
a speaker should have a low frequency limit of < 40Hz.
If the low frequency limit is above, then the subjective
quality measure will be affected and there is a very
noticeable difference between a 40Hz and a 50Hz speaker
and a large distance from 40Hz to say 60Hz IMHO.
A 60Hz speaker compared to a 40Hz speaker has a big
handicap. Given most other properties are on par, the 60Hz
speaker has to do something really better to get even noticed.
Low bass is a "must have" for a high quality speaker.
To go even lower might improve subjective quality,
but the effort/result ratio rises overproportionally.
Concerning "overpronounced" or "boomy" bass, it
may be more difficult to impress experienced
listeners with that.
But we all know that there is large variance in taste
and room acoustics.
Kind Regards
impact of bandwith:
Handbuch der Tonstudiotechnik - Google Bücher
On page 127 there is a diagram relating subjective
quality measure in % to bandwidth.
I guess the first print of that book is from early 70`s,
and the diagramm is fairly old.
Nevertheless i always read that diagram in a way that
a speaker should have a low frequency limit of < 40Hz.
If the low frequency limit is above, then the subjective
quality measure will be affected and there is a very
noticeable difference between a 40Hz and a 50Hz speaker
and a large distance from 40Hz to say 60Hz IMHO.
A 60Hz speaker compared to a 40Hz speaker has a big
handicap. Given most other properties are on par, the 60Hz
speaker has to do something really better to get even noticed.
Low bass is a "must have" for a high quality speaker.
To go even lower might improve subjective quality,
but the effort/result ratio rises overproportionally.
Concerning "overpronounced" or "boomy" bass, it
may be more difficult to impress experienced
listeners with that.
But we all know that there is large variance in taste
and room acoustics.
Kind Regards
Last edited:
I think I agree with all those thoughts and love to listen to pedals in French organ music at home and in churches.
But i've been watching a lot of my favourite recordings on a real-time on-line spectrum analyzer. There is inconceivably little content down there. Lots of crashing bass and fierce kettledrumming is 80 Hz, sometimes 60. Side drums are tuned around 32 (sometimes 27 or slide to 27 after the first bang) but the ear easily inserts fundamental tone from the partials. Rare to find content below 45 Hz.
What I am saying is that it is a paradox to find something happening so rarely to be so important.
Footnote: the famous and respected Klipschorn has a grand way of filling rooms with wonderful rolling bass, shaking windows, etc. But it really does not play too loud low! Odd.
BTW, have big-bass as a leading criterion of quality kind of conflicts with the 400,000 Rule which argues it is not how much bass you have but how much balance you have.
I often talk about ESL lovers having to live with shortcomings in ESL speakers. I think the excellent treble combined with so-so bass is one of those shortcomings some ESL lovers live with. Fortunately, not me.
My confused 2-cents.
But i've been watching a lot of my favourite recordings on a real-time on-line spectrum analyzer. There is inconceivably little content down there. Lots of crashing bass and fierce kettledrumming is 80 Hz, sometimes 60. Side drums are tuned around 32 (sometimes 27 or slide to 27 after the first bang) but the ear easily inserts fundamental tone from the partials. Rare to find content below 45 Hz.
What I am saying is that it is a paradox to find something happening so rarely to be so important.
Footnote: the famous and respected Klipschorn has a grand way of filling rooms with wonderful rolling bass, shaking windows, etc. But it really does not play too loud low! Odd.
BTW, have big-bass as a leading criterion of quality kind of conflicts with the 400,000 Rule which argues it is not how much bass you have but how much balance you have.
I often talk about ESL lovers having to live with shortcomings in ESL speakers. I think the excellent treble combined with so-so bass is one of those shortcomings some ESL lovers live with. Fortunately, not me.
My confused 2-cents.
Last edited:
If we want to have the "harmonic mean" of
low and high frequency limit somewhere around
say 630 Hz, we would have to cut most bookshelf
speakers above 7Khz ... please let you be the one
to tell that to the marketing department (haha ...)
It depends on bandwidth, bandwidth cannot be
substituted by balance ... maybe the subjective
consequences of insufficient bandwidth can be
mitigated by low v. high cutoff balancing, that
seems agreed.
But is it just the upper cutoff ?
A missing deep bass may call for a slightly
different sounding of the speaker ... it cannot
be "neutral" anyway if the lows are missing !
So please let us be pragmatical ...
Surely it depends on the kind of music.
It is also from the loudness curves, that it is often
statet the low end being only relevant at high levels.
But that does not tell the whole story IMO ...
To me the difference between a 40Hz and a 50Hz
speaker is relevant with most kinds of music.
I have no exact answer to why it is that way.
If the recording venue has some low frequency
content - where ever it may come from - the
impression of a big hall or church is more
authentically reproduced if the low frequency
content is transmitted. You feel it with your body,
it is not just the hearing. That contribution to
authentical illusion of a "big hall" or church may
change the spatial context of perception, even if
there is no instrument playing which has significant
content down there. Properly transmitted low
frequency content contributes to "envelopment"
IMO.
Kind Regards
A friend of mine owned a Klipsch Corner horn, and
there were some years, when he was modifying it.
Very few of the original components survived, since
it is a speaker which missed many updates it should
have had since the early days, when it was initially
designed.
We also changed the bass horn mouth, did some
refinement on the flare and used different drivers.
The final result did go lower than the original in
that particular room and i cannot imagine anyone
wanting to go back to were we started.
Kind Regards
Fixed a Klipschorn? That ranks in importance with Einstein's 1905 paper changing the Laws of Physics.
Kidding aside, nobody in their right mind would take a hammer and saw to a genuine Klipschorn unless they were very wealthy or nuts (DAMHIK). You would have to make major changes to get major sound changes - DAMHIK. So, was it a clone to start with?
Big mistake on my part to suggest that the 400,000 rule was any kind of LAW. In this forum, we take all laws and software simulations as ordained by the Gods of Acoustics and immutable.
Further kidding aside, I again agree sort of with Line Array. But there's just barely any content at super low frequencies, very rare, whether it gives your string quartet a cathedral acoustic or not... it just isn't present.
Today's fave bass recording: Mythodea: Mission to Mars (yes, yes, there is lift off) by Vangelis ("Chariots of Fire" - big composer of truckin' music too, I suppose). Has some electronic trickery, but mostly a large and busy drum ensemble. Sounds like sort of modern day clone version of the vocal movements of Mahler's Resurrection Sym (#2) - maybe the Mahler is better music, but the Vangelis has more bass.
Kidding aside, nobody in their right mind would take a hammer and saw to a genuine Klipschorn unless they were very wealthy or nuts (DAMHIK). You would have to make major changes to get major sound changes - DAMHIK. So, was it a clone to start with?
Big mistake on my part to suggest that the 400,000 rule was any kind of LAW. In this forum, we take all laws and software simulations as ordained by the Gods of Acoustics and immutable.
Further kidding aside, I again agree sort of with Line Array. But there's just barely any content at super low frequencies, very rare, whether it gives your string quartet a cathedral acoustic or not... it just isn't present.
Today's fave bass recording: Mythodea: Mission to Mars (yes, yes, there is lift off) by Vangelis ("Chariots of Fire" - big composer of truckin' music too, I suppose). Has some electronic trickery, but mostly a large and busy drum ensemble. Sounds like sort of modern day clone version of the vocal movements of Mahler's Resurrection Sym (#2) - maybe the Mahler is better music, but the Vangelis has more bass.
Last edited:
My friend owned an original, which he got at
a good price. Being my friend, it could well be he's
not quite right in the mind ...
I often got problems with people appearing
(also to themselves) like being "right in the mind"
He could sell his mod version without loss or
even with some profit AFAIK ...
... which points me to Mahler, to whom i did not
pay too much attention up to now.
The Vangelis recordings belong to my "deep impact"
test repertoire.
Thanks !
Last edited:
If this is correct ...
ML vista is a 2-way with an XXL dipole tweeter
to me ...
XO Frequency is around 450Hz, so there is no
dipole radiation up to the lower midrange.
XO frequency is fairly above the Schröder frequency
of the listening room and i will need someone to
explain how the radiation patterns of monopole and
dipole should blend when both trancducers are
nailed to the same place ... i guess there are very
few settings for this speaker to work in.
No need to worry about dipoles in general ...
Not quite, Bass fundamentals and Harmonics do extend down into the lower registers. Get the low bass wrong and everything will sound off , even vocals. A narrow bandwidth speaker is very difficult to listen to after hearing a full bandwidth one and 50 hz is not low enuf (F3)
regards,
Recordings done in big rooms and cathedrals must have a lot of decorrelated sound at very low levels - especially LFs - so how does it show up in the playback, subjectively?
My thinking is that it shows up as feeling of spaciousness.
And I think you need pretty efficient, and clean, bass speakers to get it. And lots of them. My two Klipsch horn klones don't quite cut it.
My thinking is that it shows up as feeling of spaciousness.
And I think you need pretty efficient, and clean, bass speakers to get it. And lots of them. My two Klipsch horn klones don't quite cut it.
Without disputing the novel theory about the essential importance of low bass for all music instruments proposed in recent posts, I can claim the privilege of seeing what's actually on recordings.
Starting with some threads dealing with organ music a few months ago, I've been watching a lot of recordings on a real-time spectrum analyzer program and eyeballing the 0-100 Hz range. If there is any content present, it is below the level of the air conditioning and transit trains and not audible*. No sopranos with that LF content LineArray is looking for.
Frank - as with seeing depth with your eyes, there are multiple cues to depth or size or spaciousness in sound. The presence of super low frequencies in recordings of reverberant large spaces might give a sense of spaciousness. But their absence does not mean they don't sound large (just as watching the world (or watching a movie) with one eye closed does not make it look flat).
*Some very old recordings, like Wanda Landowska on the harpsichord, are now playing on my system with the New York subway audible.
Starting with some threads dealing with organ music a few months ago, I've been watching a lot of recordings on a real-time spectrum analyzer program and eyeballing the 0-100 Hz range. If there is any content present, it is below the level of the air conditioning and transit trains and not audible*. No sopranos with that LF content LineArray is looking for.
Frank - as with seeing depth with your eyes, there are multiple cues to depth or size or spaciousness in sound. The presence of super low frequencies in recordings of reverberant large spaces might give a sense of spaciousness. But their absence does not mean they don't sound large (just as watching the world (or watching a movie) with one eye closed does not make it look flat).
*Some very old recordings, like Wanda Landowska on the harpsichord, are now playing on my system with the New York subway audible.
I am aware of walking on thin ice concerning
most chamber music, singers voices etc.
Furthermore i am happy for now with my subjectively
felt difference between a 40Hz and a 50Hz speaker being
just a personal opinion, as i have no hard facts to
proove it. No problem at all ...
But on some recordings i have those creaking timber,
when musicians move on their seats ... or somebody
is walking.
Sometimes "mystery LF content" could originate from
transient traffic or the air conditioning or from
the audience moving on their seats ... IMO.
And i think it is possible to cause some subtle effect
of "spaciousness" like a "ping" sent from time to time,
estimating the size of the recording venue.
But as i said, i have just subjective impressions
with some recordings not belonging to the "Vangelis"
genre of music.
Kind Regards
I agree with that.
To take a sidestep, i often wondered about these
emotional discussions between analog and digital
audio advocates.
Especially concerning the early times of digital audio
- despite of flaws in the early technique and lovelessly
made digital remasters (!) being on the market -
i think that some missing artefacts also played a role:
1) missing rumble from the turntable
2) missing noise carpet
3) missing harmonic distortion
Some wild and unproven hypothesis (as you know me by now):
1) Rumble - even as an artefact - may have
contributed to the notion of spaciousness.
It may also have contributed to random excursion
of the amplifiers and other components around the
"idle state" especially at gentle passages, thereby
mitigating transfer distortions present in some
components ( especially A/B amplifiers, maybe also
loudspeakers since THD is often quite high for
very small excursions too ).
2) Noise. Does not sound bad always ... A slight noise
carpet can cause a more brilliant or "airy" impression
on many programm material, even if that noise is not
audible distinctly.
The mastering of a recording according to some
tonal balance might be affected from the level of noise present.
So i guess, recording and mastering habits had to be
adapted to the new medium, which took some time.
3) Harmonic distortion - if the listeners are accustomed
to a certain level of distortion e.g. caused by the
pickup of the turntable and the preliminary record
manufacturing process for decades, there will be some
harmonics missing if you take them away abruptly.
Just my 2ct ...
Last edited:
Psi
What about some collaborative esoteric experiment gentlemen ?
Recorded "silence" - all over the world - wanted !
Would be a nice project in our troubled times, eh ?
Town Hall
Church
Small cabin in the forest
Cave
Silent room with record player playing a silent groove of a record ...
...
No limits to the kind of "silence" to be found somewhere.
GSRP - Global Silence Research Project.
Cult status of the collection is guaranteed among audiophiles, esoterics etc.
Maybe someone has already done it before.
Say 20 sec. of "canned silence" ?
Can we have an upload thread in here ?
If we cannot transmit silence, how could we transmit music and speech ?
No sound source should be audible, which points to the nature of the place,
like a falling drop in a cave, or an announcment on a railway station and
especially no silly birds singing.
That's real hardore esoterics !
Recordings could be presented in a random sequence, asking the listener
to guess the "class" of the place recorded.
Then we could search for correlations - also whether the low cutoff of
the gear plays a role.
Kind Regards
What about some collaborative esoteric experiment gentlemen ?
Recorded "silence" - all over the world - wanted !
Would be a nice project in our troubled times, eh ?
Town Hall
Church
Small cabin in the forest
Cave
Silent room with record player playing a silent groove of a record ...
...
No limits to the kind of "silence" to be found somewhere.
GSRP - Global Silence Research Project.
Cult status of the collection is guaranteed among audiophiles, esoterics etc.
Maybe someone has already done it before.
Say 20 sec. of "canned silence" ?
Can we have an upload thread in here ?
If we cannot transmit silence, how could we transmit music and speech ?
No sound source should be audible, which points to the nature of the place,
like a falling drop in a cave, or an announcment on a railway station and
especially no silly birds singing.
That's real hardore esoterics !
Recordings could be presented in a random sequence, asking the listener
to guess the "class" of the place recorded.
Then we could search for correlations - also whether the low cutoff of
the gear plays a role.
Kind Regards
Last edited:
A number of composers have experimented with silence.
Old, 78 transfer of Toscanini string orch doing Beeth 16 quartet - a very modern work. The piece and the performance propel forward very fast AND the 78 shellac noise whizzing by greatly adds to the sense of forward motion.
Not sure about what rumble adds!
People love that mellow sound tube gear. But easy to duplicate by turning down the treble on solid state amp.
It is true that wide band new gear will show up imperfections of old recordings. But like with ESL shortcomings, you can often hear "through it" without being bothered by those imperfections, like dirt on eyeglasses.
Old, 78 transfer of Toscanini string orch doing Beeth 16 quartet - a very modern work. The piece and the performance propel forward very fast AND the 78 shellac noise whizzing by greatly adds to the sense of forward motion.
Not sure about what rumble adds!
People love that mellow sound tube gear. But easy to duplicate by turning down the treble on solid state amp.
It is true that wide band new gear will show up imperfections of old recordings. But like with ESL shortcomings, you can often hear "through it" without being bothered by those imperfections, like dirt on eyeglasses.
Thought I'd try an OB sub-woofer after reading all the hoopla here about OB charms.
See this long post.
See this long post.
Ever stood in a big space in silence with your eyes closed or for that matter in a very small room or closet - can you tell the difference?
No im not weird its just from memory
Empty aircraft hanger you can 'feel' that its big
Is this some sort of psycoacoustic effect or is it because you know where you are.
one recording comes to mind - paco de lucia, John McLaughlan and al di meola etc Mediterranean sundance live in San Francisco
You hear them walking across the stage at the start and can imagine where you are.
No im not weird its just from memory
Empty aircraft hanger you can 'feel' that its big
Is this some sort of psycoacoustic effect or is it because you know where you are.
one recording comes to mind - paco de lucia, John McLaughlan and al di meola etc Mediterranean sundance live in San Francisco
You hear them walking across the stage at the start and can imagine where you are.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.