Hello chaps - thanks for doing all the thinking for me!
I know nothing about ESL's so it's nice to have a peep over your shoulder.
I thought I would suggest 3D printing as a way of making the frames or supports for the rod things.
If you can envisage it in 3D cad it can be built for real in PVC, Glass, Stone, siver, bronze or stainless steel using 3D printing.
My friend makes jewelery this way.
Have a look at this company.
Gyroid by Bathsheba on Shapeways
This is just an example of what can me made.
I know nothing about ESL's so it's nice to have a peep over your shoulder.
I thought I would suggest 3D printing as a way of making the frames or supports for the rod things.
If you can envisage it in 3D cad it can be built for real in PVC, Glass, Stone, siver, bronze or stainless steel using 3D printing.
My friend makes jewelery this way.
Have a look at this company.
Gyroid by Bathsheba on Shapeways
This is just an example of what can me made.
Hello dvidovic , Welcome to the Forum !! 
If you read through this thread you will find most of the answers you may be looking for, However I have compiled a list of links to help even more info that may be of use to you here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...vice-information-reassurance.html#post2205114
I my favorite materials to use is plain ole' window screen, it is by far the cheapest to use, I also use TIG rod as well I like this material for its rigidity.
Some like to use the old method of using PVC coated wire, this method can be challenging for some due to having to build a stretcher for the wire and making sure it is perfectly straight and mounting on the frames without them buckling under too much tension, it can be quite challenging for the beginner.
Perforated Metal is about the easiest way to go, But one must not make the panels and/or segments too wide or you will have a panel that will be very directional and you will have to hold your head in a vice in order to enjoy them.
To get around this, one should use an electrically segmented design, Thus the use of Insulated wire or TIG rod that is either coated or Uncoated.
I prefer to coat them as there are many discussion on that subject.
I use just common off of the shelf spray paints for my coatings, I did a whole study on this starting here but do read the whole thread from the 1st post as it has a wealth of info on the subject,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...tric-coatings-fact-fiction-2.html#post2893839
Making stator's coated with graphite has been done for ES phone (See Peter walker and Baxandall's papers on this) but I would not suggest this method for a full size ESL.
There is no benefit to sound quality by using exotic materials for stator's....At All !
Except for Frame rigidity.
(last link below)
I have wanted to try carbon fiber myself but it is just much to costly for what it is worth.
PCB material is good as well if you don't mind doing all of the machining yourself.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/234975-another-segmented-esl.html#post4498627
Here is a link the some pictures of the panels I have made using the methods I described above.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/158115-material-esl-2.html#post2075441
This one is a Micro driver that made using perf-board and aluminium tape,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/158115-material-esl-2.html#post2074212
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/158115-material-esl-2.html#post2076459
This one was made with Double Powder coated window screen and was the focus of my extreme testing and was quite successful for the most part ( until I burned it up).
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...nstruct-cube-louver-acoustat.html#post2142851
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/109789-esl-diaphragm-coating-8.html#post2160477
I would not suggest to use PowderCoating unless it can be done right..... Without any Microcrack's forming.
As a First time builder I would suggest to build small panels until you get your construction technique down pat.
I got excellent performance out of my desk top sized models and SPL's in excess of +105db an just a 80 watt amp as shown here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...tle-woofer-tower-litte-panel.html#post4009496
If you look closely you will see a major burn hole on the side, this was the last picture that I took of the panel after its demise just after those measurements were made.
the Charts Are calibrated in db to my SPL meter.
I made those panels in 2003.
I now have a TIG rod version the exact same size built and coated to withstand some more extreme testing very soon.
Pictured below, I have a complete build thread on another website that is still accessible but they lost all of the build pictures.
This post shows it in the bottom left corner as well as my larger unfinished full size TIG stators.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...ut-segmented-wire-stator-esl.html#post4183169
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...ectrostatic-speakers-dummies.html#post2547781
The criteria for that build can be found here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...st-esl-measurments-questions.html#post4076362
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...tor-esl-simulator-esl_seg_ui.html#post3184437
And here my actual Blueprint persey,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...ut-segmented-wire-stator-esl.html#post4184450
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...-segmented-wire-stator-esl-5.html#post4257583
Anyhow that should get you started, it is a lot of reading but it is worth it.
You will find everything you need to know in those threads and links I posted on those threads.
I do have another post with another huge list of links, You may run across it in those threads.
More reading here...
Sanders Sound Systems - Dispersion White Paper
This link is Priceless !!!
It is to the above mentioned papers, The book by Frank Verwaal is what you need to read, it explains everything on the Pro's and Con's of all of the different styles of configurations and shapes to consider.
Elektrostatic Loudspeakers
Cheers and Good luck !!!
Jer
P.S. Don't be afraid to ask about anything that you don't understand!!
If you read through this thread you will find most of the answers you may be looking for, However I have compiled a list of links to help even more info that may be of use to you here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...vice-information-reassurance.html#post2205114
I my favorite materials to use is plain ole' window screen, it is by far the cheapest to use, I also use TIG rod as well I like this material for its rigidity.
Some like to use the old method of using PVC coated wire, this method can be challenging for some due to having to build a stretcher for the wire and making sure it is perfectly straight and mounting on the frames without them buckling under too much tension, it can be quite challenging for the beginner.
Perforated Metal is about the easiest way to go, But one must not make the panels and/or segments too wide or you will have a panel that will be very directional and you will have to hold your head in a vice in order to enjoy them.
To get around this, one should use an electrically segmented design, Thus the use of Insulated wire or TIG rod that is either coated or Uncoated.
I prefer to coat them as there are many discussion on that subject.
I use just common off of the shelf spray paints for my coatings, I did a whole study on this starting here but do read the whole thread from the 1st post as it has a wealth of info on the subject,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...tric-coatings-fact-fiction-2.html#post2893839
Making stator's coated with graphite has been done for ES phone (See Peter walker and Baxandall's papers on this) but I would not suggest this method for a full size ESL.
There is no benefit to sound quality by using exotic materials for stator's....At All !
Except for Frame rigidity.
(last link below)
I have wanted to try carbon fiber myself but it is just much to costly for what it is worth.
PCB material is good as well if you don't mind doing all of the machining yourself.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/234975-another-segmented-esl.html#post4498627
Here is a link the some pictures of the panels I have made using the methods I described above.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/158115-material-esl-2.html#post2075441
This one is a Micro driver that made using perf-board and aluminium tape,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/158115-material-esl-2.html#post2074212
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/158115-material-esl-2.html#post2076459
This one was made with Double Powder coated window screen and was the focus of my extreme testing and was quite successful for the most part ( until I burned it up).
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...nstruct-cube-louver-acoustat.html#post2142851
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/109789-esl-diaphragm-coating-8.html#post2160477
I would not suggest to use PowderCoating unless it can be done right..... Without any Microcrack's forming.
As a First time builder I would suggest to build small panels until you get your construction technique down pat.
I got excellent performance out of my desk top sized models and SPL's in excess of +105db an just a 80 watt amp as shown here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...tle-woofer-tower-litte-panel.html#post4009496
If you look closely you will see a major burn hole on the side, this was the last picture that I took of the panel after its demise just after those measurements were made.
the Charts Are calibrated in db to my SPL meter.
I made those panels in 2003.
I now have a TIG rod version the exact same size built and coated to withstand some more extreme testing very soon.
Pictured below, I have a complete build thread on another website that is still accessible but they lost all of the build pictures.
This post shows it in the bottom left corner as well as my larger unfinished full size TIG stators.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...ut-segmented-wire-stator-esl.html#post4183169
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...ectrostatic-speakers-dummies.html#post2547781
The criteria for that build can be found here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...st-esl-measurments-questions.html#post4076362
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...tor-esl-simulator-esl_seg_ui.html#post3184437
And here my actual Blueprint persey,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...ut-segmented-wire-stator-esl.html#post4184450
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...-segmented-wire-stator-esl-5.html#post4257583
Anyhow that should get you started, it is a lot of reading but it is worth it.
You will find everything you need to know in those threads and links I posted on those threads.
I do have another post with another huge list of links, You may run across it in those threads.
More reading here...
Sanders Sound Systems - Dispersion White Paper
This link is Priceless !!!
It is to the above mentioned papers, The book by Frank Verwaal is what you need to read, it explains everything on the Pro's and Con's of all of the different styles of configurations and shapes to consider.
Elektrostatic Loudspeakers
Cheers and Good luck !!!
Jer
P.S. Don't be afraid to ask about anything that you don't understand!!
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I would work of course but I have a couple of concerns about using this wire for ESL stators.
First, steel wires would be horrendously difficult to stretch straight and you really need them straight to achieve consistent d/s (diaphragm to stator spacing) and spacing between wires.
Second, most of the wire listed there is not insulated (for arc resistance) and the ones that are insulated are jacketed with something other than XLPVC, which is preferred for ESL's. And BTW, their jacketed steel wire is't cheaper than XLPVC insulated copper from Interstate Wire.
From Interstate Wire I purchased 1600 ft of XLPVC insulated 20 AWG single strand copper for $67
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Yes, that needed to be said, before someone makes a (likely expensive) mistake.
I went 'round and 'round with wire purchasing, and Interstate has the best product(s) for the best prices, (if you reside in the US).
If going the insulated wire route, this is the product I and others used:
WIA-2001-0 - UL AWM Style 1429 | Interstate Wire
Be aware, the 1429 product comes in different types. The one you most likely want is the 2001. I remember it 20/01.
Broken down, that's 20awg, with 01 (one {solid} conductor).
*edit* Oh, and FYI, it would be $36usd per 1000 foot.
Cheers
I went 'round and 'round with wire purchasing, and Interstate has the best product(s) for the best prices, (if you reside in the US).
If going the insulated wire route, this is the product I and others used:
WIA-2001-0 - UL AWM Style 1429 | Interstate Wire
Be aware, the 1429 product comes in different types. The one you most likely want is the 2001. I remember it 20/01.
Broken down, that's 20awg, with 01 (one {solid} conductor).
*edit* Oh, and FYI, it would be $36usd per 1000 foot.
Cheers
Last edited:
Hey all. I'm a very mechanical guy, but struggle with circuit stuff. I feel 100% confident I can build decent panels, but the HV supply and Signal Amplification circuits have me stuck at this point. I've come across a place you can buy some self-biased HV supplied (KenSeibert.Com Audio Projects) for a decent price, however even messing with the signal transformers makes me scratch my head.
Is anyone selling a complete setup that just has the 3 wires running out and an AC plug in (Or even no input with the self-biased supply). Closest I could find is the 505 set, which comes with the ESL panels as well (Which I won't need). They're also out in Australia which makes shipping an issue.
Is anyone selling a complete setup that just has the 3 wires running out and an AC plug in (Or even no input with the self-biased supply). Closest I could find is the 505 set, which comes with the ESL panels as well (Which I won't need). They're also out in Australia which makes shipping an issue.
This website below shows the most simple interface that I've seen anywhere. On the front page there's a schematic and parts list and about halfway down the page there are links to build photos--click on the "Amp/panel Interface - more info" link, there are detailed photos showing how to build it.
If you're not comfortable building one yourself, I could maybe hook you up if you're building a hybrid panel.. PM me.
Cancellation
Hello,
if somebody can help me. I have a few question about ESLs.
As i understand they function as dipoles and so emit two audio signals,
original + invert signal in opposite directions.
Where exactly does cancellation happen with ESL?
Many sources say that cancellation only happens at the borders of the speaker when invert signal gets reflected back?
But what would happen if i would place the speaker in parallel to a wall, let us say 2-4 inches.
You may ask yourself why on earth one should do such a thing.
It is curiosity. Would there be a great loss in volume???
Hello,
if somebody can help me. I have a few question about ESLs.
As i understand they function as dipoles and so emit two audio signals,
original + invert signal in opposite directions.
Where exactly does cancellation happen with ESL?
Many sources say that cancellation only happens at the borders of the speaker when invert signal gets reflected back?
But what would happen if i would place the speaker in parallel to a wall, let us say 2-4 inches.
You may ask yourself why on earth one should do such a thing.
It is curiosity. Would there be a great loss in volume???
yes, lots of loss
bad comb filter cancellations occur when dipole panels are parallel and close to walls, especially elcetrotsats which are nearly acoustically transparent
at only a few inches the lowest notch would include everything below a few kHz
ES panels can be put in closed boxes filled with stuffing - but usually the panel is already large, adding a box makes them coffin size
bad comb filter cancellations occur when dipole panels are parallel and close to walls, especially elcetrotsats which are nearly acoustically transparent
at only a few inches the lowest notch would include everything below a few kHz
ES panels can be put in closed boxes filled with stuffing - but usually the panel is already large, adding a box makes them coffin size
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Open panel dipoles placed away from walls and also not parallel to the wall behind them do not behave like the textbook illustration. The wave from the back does not creep around and totally annihilate the front wave everywhere north of a wavelength half the length of half the width of the panel or some such nonsense.
Some sound creeps around but most just travels off and bounces around. Not easy to illustrate the real-world of room acoustics in a textbook.
Below some frequency, cancellation becomes significant but that may be lower than the design limit of the panel anyway.
As all dipole users can tell you, in a good room you get lush ambience and often, perhaps ironically, super stereo too. I had to put my large panels rather close together to avoid ping-pong distraction.
B.
Some sound creeps around but most just travels off and bounces around. Not easy to illustrate the real-world of room acoustics in a textbook.
Below some frequency, cancellation becomes significant but that may be lower than the design limit of the panel anyway.
As all dipole users can tell you, in a good room you get lush ambience and often, perhaps ironically, super stereo too. I had to put my large panels rather close together to avoid ping-pong distraction.
B.
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Hi,
while the first sentence of that quote is correct, is the second pure marketing BS.
It is as if they wrote: "We desgned physics .... to obtain best results"
One can quite easily evaluate over what frequency range a reflected-from-the backwall-wave adds and where it subtracts from the directly radiated wave by calculating the phase shift. All You need to know are frequency and distance.
"so it is impossible to put htem a few inches next to a wall in parallel.
Martin Logan has designed ES panels that sit right next 6 inches to a wall for home theather"
Not everything that is possible is always any good.
So far no one came up with a close wall design that sounded by far as well as a freely positioned panel ... not X not Y and also not ML.
jauu
Calvin
while the first sentence of that quote is correct, is the second pure marketing BS.
It is as if they wrote: "We desgned physics .... to obtain best results"
One can quite easily evaluate over what frequency range a reflected-from-the backwall-wave adds and where it subtracts from the directly radiated wave by calculating the phase shift. All You need to know are frequency and distance.
"so it is impossible to put htem a few inches next to a wall in parallel.
Martin Logan has designed ES panels that sit right next 6 inches to a wall for home theather"
Not everything that is possible is always any good.
So far no one came up with a close wall design that sounded by far as well as a freely positioned panel ... not X not Y and also not ML.
jauu
Calvin
That's the good old textbook illustration of wavelength arithmetic. Hardly applicable to the real world of peoples' music rooms.
What emanates from the rear goes off in all directions and bounces off all kinds of surfaces and distances. Some of these bouncing rays support and some diminish the front sound. Which leads to the other common fantasy about combing filtering.
Comb filtering (and the kind of wave arithmetic Calvin mentions) might be observable in simulations or in bread-board electric circuits. But with music in your music room, the notes are constantly in flux and - like in normal acoustic environments as well as loudspeaker reproduction - comb filtering just isn't part of the human experience.
OB and dipoles are the undeserving victims of this misleading textbook arithmetic. That's my experience.
B>
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Hello, thank you all for your minds.
MAybe i should a little more elaborate on why i am so interested in this.
I am thinking of a noise cancellation project where i want to decrease the amplitude of a particular sound.
The geometry of the scene doesnt allow for placing the speaker far away.
In fact the ESl should have the same curvature as a cylinderthat would be placed a few cms behind it.
So i am thinking of a cylindrical ES placed concentric to an inner cylinder whose wall is only a few cm away.
The sound would come from the outside facing inwards to the cylinder.
MAybe i should a little more elaborate on why i am so interested in this.
I am thinking of a noise cancellation project where i want to decrease the amplitude of a particular sound.
The geometry of the scene doesnt allow for placing the speaker far away.
In fact the ESl should have the same curvature as a cylinderthat would be placed a few cms behind it.
So i am thinking of a cylindrical ES placed concentric to an inner cylinder whose wall is only a few cm away.
The sound would come from the outside facing inwards to the cylinder.
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