RTA update
sorry i have not posted sooner, back injury. either way, Here are the other pics, I have not figured out how to describe each pic, but will have a number,
All measurements are done about 9' or 108cm. with the mic on a camera podeum.
> 5090422
pink noise with the meter set at 80-100db, callibration a litttle high to show cross-over points, very impressive, flat from 25hz thru 25k, nice drops at 24 db slope, the curves merge perfect.
>5100432
brown noise, not very familier but tested any way, Ger sent this to mw as well the pink noise, to have or rather post how flat the hybrid planer works. Obviously, most people choose pink noise for testing, thats what i suggest.
>5100433
this one is awesome, it blew me away, this is a test tone @ 18hz from a CD, this what i picked up at 9" or 130cm away, only from one. the entire house was shaking, dishes in the kitchen going crazy, the woofer was going nuts, but no distortion, i went on testing the tl, but will have to post more pics, as it was getting late and i do have neighbors.
The first pic was something i have almost never seen in my line of work, a flat responce is allmost impossable using tradtional round speakers for the entitre frequency range. I think i posted a pic of that as well. I will post it again here, save some time,
same tone same distance.
>5090423
sorry i have not posted sooner, back injury. either way, Here are the other pics, I have not figured out how to describe each pic, but will have a number,
All measurements are done about 9' or 108cm. with the mic on a camera podeum.
> 5090422
pink noise with the meter set at 80-100db, callibration a litttle high to show cross-over points, very impressive, flat from 25hz thru 25k, nice drops at 24 db slope, the curves merge perfect.
>5100432
brown noise, not very familier but tested any way, Ger sent this to mw as well the pink noise, to have or rather post how flat the hybrid planer works. Obviously, most people choose pink noise for testing, thats what i suggest.
>5100433
this one is awesome, it blew me away, this is a test tone @ 18hz from a CD, this what i picked up at 9" or 130cm away, only from one. the entire house was shaking, dishes in the kitchen going crazy, the woofer was going nuts, but no distortion, i went on testing the tl, but will have to post more pics, as it was getting late and i do have neighbors.
The first pic was something i have almost never seen in my line of work, a flat responce is allmost impossable using tradtional round speakers for the entitre frequency range. I think i posted a pic of that as well. I will post it again here, save some time,
same tone same distance.
>5090423
Attachments
I will follow up this week end with that specfic test, thanks for the heads up.
Hi Mavric,
Thanks for taking us along on your excellent build. Someday, I'll build my own pair based on what you and Charlie have most generously shown us.
Any chance you can share a graph from RTA? Also, tough question to ask, but is your current room big enough for your speakers?
Thanks again,
Craigj
Thanks for taking us along on your excellent build. Someday, I'll build my own pair based on what you and Charlie have most generously shown us.
Any chance you can share a graph from RTA? Also, tough question to ask, but is your current room big enough for your speakers?
Thanks again,
Craigj
Sorry my friend, i do not have it plugged into the printer, and yes, these are a bit large for my living area. The panels and subs are 20 feet away from the sweet spot, honestly, it was a little over done, but there are times when you want rock. I like rock, i guess in my eyes and ears, its perfect, i can allways turn them down, rather than having too small and trying to get louder. I am sure Ger would dissagree on this, as his are loud as heck, but the dispersion on these panels rival smaller at low volume, as i am still learning here.
I have had a few people interested in this meter, any suggestions on testing? i have only used it for spl, first time using the rta mike. suggestions are welcome.
I have had a few people interested in this meter, any suggestions on testing? i have only used it for spl, first time using the rta mike. suggestions are welcome.
Roger Sanders' Cookbook states that you actually need more amp power to drive a smaller speaker to a given SPL than you would need to drive a larger panel to the same SPL.
Yes this is correct.There is no substitution for surface area.
I have learned to compensate this by using a higher transformation ratio,but not without compromising issues of course
But as for my little panels,they are quite efficiant and very loud for the desktop.
Being no more than 2 to 3 feet from them,they are very ample for near field monitoring.
Also being so close to them (in your face literaly), I don't have much, if any, room refraction issues
Although they would probably sound okay in a larger room,they would be no match to the size panels that you guys have made.
Those big panels are in my todo very soon list as well.jer
I have learned to compensate this by using a higher transformation ratio,but not without compromising issues of course
But as for my little panels,they are quite efficiant and very loud for the desktop.
Being no more than 2 to 3 feet from them,they are very ample for near field monitoring.
Also being so close to them (in your face literaly), I don't have much, if any, room refraction issues
Although they would probably sound okay in a larger room,they would be no match to the size panels that you guys have made.
Those big panels are in my todo very soon list as well.jer
Jer,
I just orderd a couple of el-cheapo ($13 each) 50VA 2x115v/2x6v toroidal trannys for tryout-- a tandem of these with 115v sides in series and 6v sides parallel will provide the same step-up as my current trannys, which perform beautifully. As these have dual primaries, however, I am quite worried about them possibly shorting out and frying my amp. I don't have any means to test them except to hook them up and feed them some juice and see how they sound. Anyways, if these work, it's a cheap and available source for trannys.
I just orderd a couple of el-cheapo ($13 each) 50VA 2x115v/2x6v toroidal trannys for tryout-- a tandem of these with 115v sides in series and 6v sides parallel will provide the same step-up as my current trannys, which perform beautifully. As these have dual primaries, however, I am quite worried about them possibly shorting out and frying my amp. I don't have any means to test them except to hook them up and feed them some juice and see how they sound. Anyways, if these work, it's a cheap and available source for trannys.
Cool let me know were you got them from, I'm going through mine right now and will be posting the specs very soon.
It will be very interesting, as I have learned a great deal about them.
I will be posting the info very soon.
Moms going to Georgia tomorrow and I wish I could go.
I had to redo the brakes on her Rendevous today.
I would be there but I don't have any one to watch the kids (pets) yet,but when she comes back the next trip is to florida to get my amps and appogee dueta's.
If I can find a kid sitter by then I'll be going ,and, try to stop by.
After taking a long needed break and re-hashing every thing I have learned about transformers ,who would think that a couple of turns of wire and a hunk of iron would be so complicated!
By the way,sorry I haven't gotten back to you about the metal yet ,I'm still interested in it ,as the phone is back on now,finaly.
I am doing some drawings an will get back to you on the size.
Any way I can help you determine the specs very easly.
It would be very interesting as to how the new transformers perform.
I need to find I smaller core to use with the little panels so that it can fit inside of the little box.
And,Yes,these do work very very well,in a pinch,But not from a performance standpoint ,It would be better to do a ground up wind.
That is a good price for for a transformer ,very good price.
You will see once I get my data squared away.
IMO ,although time consuming as with any wind,the cores present a higher quality and performance than the typical E-I core that is readily available ,without the problems of restacking and gluing the laminations to keep them from viberating,yet, able to unwind it to make a change.
Just my thoughts for today. jer
It will be very interesting, as I have learned a great deal about them.
I will be posting the info very soon.
Moms going to Georgia tomorrow and I wish I could go.
I had to redo the brakes on her Rendevous today.
I would be there but I don't have any one to watch the kids (pets) yet,but when she comes back the next trip is to florida to get my amps and appogee dueta's.
If I can find a kid sitter by then I'll be going ,and, try to stop by.
After taking a long needed break and re-hashing every thing I have learned about transformers ,who would think that a couple of turns of wire and a hunk of iron would be so complicated!
By the way,sorry I haven't gotten back to you about the metal yet ,I'm still interested in it ,as the phone is back on now,finaly.
I am doing some drawings an will get back to you on the size.
Any way I can help you determine the specs very easly.
It would be very interesting as to how the new transformers perform.
I need to find I smaller core to use with the little panels so that it can fit inside of the little box.
And,Yes,these do work very very well,in a pinch,But not from a performance standpoint ,It would be better to do a ground up wind.
That is a good price for for a transformer ,very good price.
You will see once I get my data squared away.
IMO ,although time consuming as with any wind,the cores present a higher quality and performance than the typical E-I core that is readily available ,without the problems of restacking and gluing the laminations to keep them from viberating,yet, able to unwind it to make a change.
Just my thoughts for today. jer
Last edited:
internet prob
Talked with Charlie about his new find. Alot less inexpensive and he took the chance of playing with them.
A simple, inexpensive trannie, for the DIY person. I believe he spent around 100usd per trannie. the ones we both use were around 50usd for both, now, this? If anyonyone wants an ESL, Charlie just helped out so much on money and investment. He has a blog and I highly recommend it, jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com
so much information,
Charlie, plan on a visit next weekend, want to RTA yours. Let me know.
Talked with Charlie about his new find. Alot less inexpensive and he took the chance of playing with them.
A simple, inexpensive trannie, for the DIY person. I believe he spent around 100usd per trannie. the ones we both use were around 50usd for both, now, this? If anyonyone wants an ESL, Charlie just helped out so much on money and investment. He has a blog and I highly recommend it, jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com
so much information,
Charlie, plan on a visit next weekend, want to RTA yours. Let me know.
Rta coming
I have to leave the meter at work, but I have aquired the banna plug for the pink noise generator. It is the weekend and vacation for most, so some time Tuesday, i hope i can post the results.
>as requested, testing just the panels@ 9' or 130cm
>then, the tl, at same paremeter.
i believe this will still have a flat responce, no EQ, crossover flat, and some really old amps.
max power on these is roughly 130 watt/rms i will be no where near that and i do not have the equipment to post a stagnent output. my guess is 75.
> this be tested in stereo.
the funny thing is, i allready know what they sound like. As soon as the weekend passes, i will try and show the data. I wish i could have done this a long time ago. sounds stupid, but its the friends here that made it possable.
I have to leave the meter at work, but I have aquired the banna plug for the pink noise generator. It is the weekend and vacation for most, so some time Tuesday, i hope i can post the results.
>as requested, testing just the panels@ 9' or 130cm
>then, the tl, at same paremeter.
i believe this will still have a flat responce, no EQ, crossover flat, and some really old amps.
max power on these is roughly 130 watt/rms i will be no where near that and i do not have the equipment to post a stagnent output. my guess is 75.
> this be tested in stereo.
the funny thing is, i allready know what they sound like. As soon as the weekend passes, i will try and show the data. I wish i could have done this a long time ago. sounds stupid, but its the friends here that made it possable.
suggestions
I really need some suggestions on having a control for this setup. mike placement and height. Any suggestions are welcome, these are so loud and clear, you cannot hear yourself speak or yell, with maybe 1/2volt on the rca input, incredible! Still fascinating how this works so perfectly, from jazz, clasic, some really havy metal, to contemporay, this a gem i do not wish to sepaerate with.
Either way, need some advice on placement, i am enjoying this.
post scripit..freaking loud and sooo clear.
I really need some suggestions on having a control for this setup. mike placement and height. Any suggestions are welcome, these are so loud and clear, you cannot hear yourself speak or yell, with maybe 1/2volt on the rca input, incredible! Still fascinating how this works so perfectly, from jazz, clasic, some really havy metal, to contemporay, this a gem i do not wish to sepaerate with.
Either way, need some advice on placement, i am enjoying this.
post scripit..freaking loud and sooo clear.
Rta pics as requested
Pic#62020472
> Just one esl panel @ 9feet or 130cm away at mid level or listening level, all the test will be the same except the last. I am using the pink nouse generator on the RTA meter, crossover is set a 500hz, 24 db slope, wattage is tough but i would think around 75 watts, maybe a little more, these amps are only rated @ 125 @ 4ohm. There was no TL, just the panel(1).
pic #62020473
>Just the TL, i think something is up or wrong with this sub as it is very very old, as well as my amps. I myself can hear something resonating, could be something in the house, dont know.
pic#62020474
> the other TL, a little differnt responce.
pic#62020476
> both esl's and tl's playing in stereo, rather mono, but using both speakers at the same diastance as first noted.
pic#62020477
> Same setup, only moved another four feet away, seems to be even flatter on the responce. This is simply amayzing. Has anyone else performed test at these distances here? I have looked but nothing, every test that i could find was relativly close to the speaker, mine see to go flatter the further you are.
I will have the meter for a few days, so please let us know your thoughts on the tests. Mav
Pic#62020472
> Just one esl panel @ 9feet or 130cm away at mid level or listening level, all the test will be the same except the last. I am using the pink nouse generator on the RTA meter, crossover is set a 500hz, 24 db slope, wattage is tough but i would think around 75 watts, maybe a little more, these amps are only rated @ 125 @ 4ohm. There was no TL, just the panel(1).
pic #62020473
>Just the TL, i think something is up or wrong with this sub as it is very very old, as well as my amps. I myself can hear something resonating, could be something in the house, dont know.
pic#62020474
> the other TL, a little differnt responce.
pic#62020476
> both esl's and tl's playing in stereo, rather mono, but using both speakers at the same diastance as first noted.
pic#62020477
> Same setup, only moved another four feet away, seems to be even flatter on the responce. This is simply amayzing. Has anyone else performed test at these distances here? I have looked but nothing, every test that i could find was relativly close to the speaker, mine see to go flatter the further you are.
I will have the meter for a few days, so please let us know your thoughts on the tests. Mav
Attachments
Spl @ 20'
This is beginning to mess with my neighbors, Check this out, and keep in mind the equipment. Even RTA shows pretty flat. And yes I had to change mics, things dont work like that on this meter, this is crazy loud, the music was White Zombie, had to irritate the wife a little.
This is beginning to mess with my neighbors, Check this out, and keep in mind the equipment. Even RTA shows pretty flat. And yes I had to change mics, things dont work like that on this meter, this is crazy loud, the music was White Zombie, had to irritate the wife a little.
Attachments
Last edited:
Hello mavric,
Usually when people are measuring close to the speakers (1m or so) they are trying to capture just the first arrival sounds from the speaker before all of the reflections of the room are added in. This tells them what the speaker is actually putting out. The measurement equipment has a way for them to select only the window in time that contains the first arrival sounds before all the reflections and echos start arriving at the mike.
Your RTA measurements are somewhat different in that they are time averaged taking in everything from the speaker and all the room reflections. This type of measurement is pretty good at letting you know what the spectral balance is, whether listenting to the speaker in that room will sound boomy, or bright, etc.
I threw your RTA measurments into XL so we could look at them overlayed all together. There appears to be a dip in the response at and above the 500Hz crossover point. You might try a couple things to get the ESL to integrate better with the woofer.
1) Try swapping the phase on the woofers to see if the outputs add together better at the crossover and fills in the dip a bit.
2) It looks to me like the ESL is not playing low enough to integerate properly with the woofer at 500Hz. For proper integration of 24dB crossovers the response for the woofer and the ESL should be -6dB at the 500Hz crossover point. The woofer is close, the ESL is not. If you have the ability to set the woofer and ESL crossover points independently, try moving the ESL crossover point down a bit to 350Hz - 400Hz while leaving the woofer set at 500Hz. Again, see if this change helps fills in the response dip at all.
3) Combination of 1) & 2)
I'm not sure why the RTA shows measured SPL of 172dB, but I'd say that is pretty unlikely.
I'd be surprised to see anything above 115-120dB.
I know when I used an Audio Control for measure SPL in a car you needed to have a particular matching microphone to get realistic SPL readings. I keep thinking there may also have been some internal dip switch setting that needed to be correctly set for what microphone you were using. It's been a while...
Attachments
Last edited:
Hi Bolserst!,
thanks for the interest, it has been a while for me as well using this meter, there are two mics, on RTA other SPL, the spl mike has been used more than a dish rag at a military base, the rta on the other hand has hardly ever been touched.
un fortunatly, my cross over stops at 500hz, and i completly understand the over lay of the drop offs, there is no overlap and well, merging the the slope.
And yes, they are very bright. My only choice is a differnt crossover, but funds are limited. I learned about slopes a long time ago, so i understand, other wise i would raise the sub and lower the esl to flatten the gap.
other than that? what do you think? Just say i did have the gap overlayed, i think its still impressive using old equip and 18 year drivers and amps. I am not a professional here, so your repsonse would be appreciated. Mav
thanks for the interest, it has been a while for me as well using this meter, there are two mics, on RTA other SPL, the spl mike has been used more than a dish rag at a military base, the rta on the other hand has hardly ever been touched.
un fortunatly, my cross over stops at 500hz, and i completly understand the over lay of the drop offs, there is no overlap and well, merging the the slope.
And yes, they are very bright. My only choice is a differnt crossover, but funds are limited. I learned about slopes a long time ago, so i understand, other wise i would raise the sub and lower the esl to flatten the gap.
other than that? what do you think? Just say i did have the gap overlayed, i think its still impressive using old equip and 18 year drivers and amps. I am not a professional here, so your repsonse would be appreciated. Mav
Hello Bolsesrst
I understand the refraction as well as room reflections. I have hurt my back and have no way of carrying these outside for testing. The results are very clear, taking into account that> you do not listen to these outside and the room reflection still has a flat responce no matter the distance or the spl, the spl was for fun, the rta still is flat.
My connection here is very limited, so if you could kindly suggest a better test, i will try and post. MY thoughts are "if its not broke, dont fix it" later and thanks for the advice. MAV
I understand the refraction as well as room reflections. I have hurt my back and have no way of carrying these outside for testing. The results are very clear, taking into account that> you do not listen to these outside and the room reflection still has a flat responce no matter the distance or the spl, the spl was for fun, the rta still is flat.
My connection here is very limited, so if you could kindly suggest a better test, i will try and post. MY thoughts are "if its not broke, dont fix it" later and thanks for the advice. MAV
Last edited:
I will return soon
appears that my back injury is worse than expected. I will stay in touch with everyone as i can, mods, you can remove or move or delete this post, there is nothing i can do or add for some time. I hope everyone that has taken the time to read and soak in the the kindness of other people helping you have never met reach the goal that i never knew was there. Charlie and Jer, thanks and i will stay in touch. Look for an email soon and I will explain.
Kind regards , Mav
appears that my back injury is worse than expected. I will stay in touch with everyone as i can, mods, you can remove or move or delete this post, there is nothing i can do or add for some time. I hope everyone that has taken the time to read and soak in the the kindness of other people helping you have never met reach the goal that i never knew was there. Charlie and Jer, thanks and i will stay in touch. Look for an email soon and I will explain.
Kind regards , Mav
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.