final product
some more pics. there is more to complete, but this is the cake, decorations will come later. I will also do a step by step on this and my adventure. one panel is simply amazing, so if anyone who reads this thread, it is well worth the time, there has not been a "start fo finish" project here that i have seen, note that there may some, just could not find it.
I gave rhis a lot og thought and will NOT make a video, there will be a new thread, "ESL start to finish project" or something of that nature.
it will be pics, expanations, hick-ups, problems and problem solving. I hope this helps, so stay tuned, we are just getting started.
some more pics. there is more to complete, but this is the cake, decorations will come later. I will also do a step by step on this and my adventure. one panel is simply amazing, so if anyone who reads this thread, it is well worth the time, there has not been a "start fo finish" project here that i have seen, note that there may some, just could not find it.
I gave rhis a lot og thought and will NOT make a video, there will be a new thread, "ESL start to finish project" or something of that nature.
it will be pics, expanations, hick-ups, problems and problem solving. I hope this helps, so stay tuned, we are just getting started.
Attachments
Licron coating
I am very happy wit this coating, i have onlry Charlies and mine as a refference, there is no better sound, invited neighbors over and they were overwhelmed, the di pole effect was awesome, they would walk away and then the music was louder, clear, you can speak to one another but that full sound was very present, no rattles, nothing.
I know now why a powered sub is NOT recommended, i tried mine and shut it off, the TL design looks weird but from todays experience, i see how it will blebd with stats.
Alot learned today, i hope i shared as much as could, but have been awake and going since 7:00AM EST and getting home around 22:00 hundred EST.
so please check this out and give me your thoughts, i have done what i can for now, what have you done? Want to HEAR it.
I am very happy wit this coating, i have onlry Charlies and mine as a refference, there is no better sound, invited neighbors over and they were overwhelmed, the di pole effect was awesome, they would walk away and then the music was louder, clear, you can speak to one another but that full sound was very present, no rattles, nothing.
I know now why a powered sub is NOT recommended, i tried mine and shut it off, the TL design looks weird but from todays experience, i see how it will blebd with stats.
Alot learned today, i hope i shared as much as could, but have been awake and going since 7:00AM EST and getting home around 22:00 hundred EST.
so please check this out and give me your thoughts, i have done what i can for now, what have you done? Want to HEAR it.
Too bad that little transformer on one of the bias supplies got fried but it's cheap at least.
I suppose you could run that panel full range but I wouldn't if I were you. I would run it hybrid using that new crossover and TL woofer (the trannys are not really suited for full range and hybrid mode would be easier on your amp).
I'm confident the panels are superbly built-- no arcing or other problems expected-- the 3M foam tape won't last forever but you shouldn't have any problems anytime soon.
Charlie, i played them or rather one so my wife could listen to her favorite music, Jewel, lots of vocals, and it took here an hour to find that ,that was the only speaker playing in the house, pianos, guitars, a little drum bass, bu running at 35rms off this little sony amp, i am at a lost for words, i cannot describe this sound, my wife was going through her music collection like a teenager with their there very first sytem (car audio) from factory to aftermarket.
She( wife) has allready heard aftermarket, and kept being asked "where is the speaker? i hear it, where is at? it sounds everywhere, where is it?"
since it was so well insulated, i told her to put your ear to it, listen from top to bottom, the look on her face was priceless, how does it work, i can see right throuh it, where is it? over and over.
i have a very open living area as well as a loft, one stat playing, any place to went, the sound was increadable. THANK YOU CHARLIE M. THANK YOU THANK YOU.
The panels are put away for the time untill my TL's are coated and the Tv stand is finished and coated as well, after all my equipment is set up, i will bring an rta meter and post some pics.
So many thanks for everyones input, i would imagine there would be suggestions, so please share, i have shared the entire process, the next is crossover and amp(s) set up. not sure to use one amp per stat and tl, or, two amp, 1/2 stat,1/2 TL, times 2. the amps are split in 1/2 on the inside,
so , one amp for the stats, and one on th TL's?????
Charlie is using Carver Amps, dont know if my set up should be differnt, so there is the question.
Still some more cosmetic building, but thats it, i have had a wonderful weekend and look forward to more wonderful days with this new knowledge. Mavric
She( wife) has allready heard aftermarket, and kept being asked "where is the speaker? i hear it, where is at? it sounds everywhere, where is it?"
since it was so well insulated, i told her to put your ear to it, listen from top to bottom, the look on her face was priceless, how does it work, i can see right throuh it, where is it? over and over.
i have a very open living area as well as a loft, one stat playing, any place to went, the sound was increadable. THANK YOU CHARLIE M. THANK YOU THANK YOU.
The panels are put away for the time untill my TL's are coated and the Tv stand is finished and coated as well, after all my equipment is set up, i will bring an rta meter and post some pics.
So many thanks for everyones input, i would imagine there would be suggestions, so please share, i have shared the entire process, the next is crossover and amp(s) set up. not sure to use one amp per stat and tl, or, two amp, 1/2 stat,1/2 TL, times 2. the amps are split in 1/2 on the inside,
so , one amp for the stats, and one on th TL's?????
Charlie is using Carver Amps, dont know if my set up should be differnt, so there is the question.
Still some more cosmetic building, but thats it, i have had a wonderful weekend and look forward to more wonderful days with this new knowledge. Mavric
Either way will work but I prefer "vertical" bi-amping, which is one amp for each speaker with one channel driving the woofer and the other channel of the same amp driving the stat panel.
That is so awesome!!!
I know that giddy feeling all to well.
I still get it every time I fire mine up after not listening to them for a few days.
I have been working on my bias supply also.
I Changed something then blew out three mosfets trying to get back to square one.
So I started over form scratch and I am back to square one and it has been running all day with no glitches .
Some how I managed to get a good looking sine wave out of the hv transformer than the pulse like distorted one i was getting.
I was working on the variable control design and trying to save using more costlier parts and got it working when things went haywire.
So I'll try again ,but somtimes the extra time and effort isn't worth it,as the cost of the 3 lost fets is 4 times the cost of the lm317 regulator should have tried in the first place, especialy since I need a regulator anyhow.
AAAAh,the fun of R&D.
Luckly I didn't blow out any diodes in my 10 stage multplier ,that would really suck!
I have gotten as much as 7mm to 9mm healthy loud arc discharges off of it without problems.
Since it is variable (aprox. 0v to 30kv) I can not only power my esl's ,but also use it to test coatings.
Next I need to add some kind of voltage meter or indicater of some sort.
I really like this circuit and need to eventualy build several more for the esl's and keep this one for the bench.
I wil post the schematics for this after I get it in box and have some more room on my bench.
Since this supply is overkill for esl's (but works for now) I wil come up with a recipe for just esl's.
Using this design or similar ,one that is variable and can be duplicated without issues for the diy'ers that don't have the know how of designing circuits. jer
I know that giddy feeling all to well.
I still get it every time I fire mine up after not listening to them for a few days.
I have been working on my bias supply also.
I Changed something then blew out three mosfets trying to get back to square one.
So I started over form scratch and I am back to square one and it has been running all day with no glitches .
Some how I managed to get a good looking sine wave out of the hv transformer than the pulse like distorted one i was getting.
I was working on the variable control design and trying to save using more costlier parts and got it working when things went haywire.
So I'll try again ,but somtimes the extra time and effort isn't worth it,as the cost of the 3 lost fets is 4 times the cost of the lm317 regulator should have tried in the first place, especialy since I need a regulator anyhow.
AAAAh,the fun of R&D.
Luckly I didn't blow out any diodes in my 10 stage multplier ,that would really suck!
I have gotten as much as 7mm to 9mm healthy loud arc discharges off of it without problems.
Since it is variable (aprox. 0v to 30kv) I can not only power my esl's ,but also use it to test coatings.
Next I need to add some kind of voltage meter or indicater of some sort.
I really like this circuit and need to eventualy build several more for the esl's and keep this one for the bench.
I wil post the schematics for this after I get it in box and have some more room on my bench.
Since this supply is overkill for esl's (but works for now) I wil come up with a recipe for just esl's.
Using this design or similar ,one that is variable and can be duplicated without issues for the diy'ers that don't have the know how of designing circuits. jer
Attachments
Hey, that's what you get with a line source. Quite different, no?
If you like one panel, wait 'till you hear them in stereo!
Kenneth
I have put mine up untill my bi amp setup and crossover network is finished, alot of time and money is in this, as well as a ton of help. You know who you are for helping me on crucial things, this weekend shoud have a final product, but have to be patient, married, and ESL's dont mix untill the wife hears them, then it A GO. some pics, stats to hooked up, just getting things set up. Charlie, they will not be played untill the crossover and amp set up is complete, have to put proper value fuses in the other and check all caps. here are some pics. maybe later, having trouble uploading.
yeah,kenneth,bass problems I can tame some what using the eq's on my mixer so crossovers are next in line.
It is the +20db high frequency peaks in some material that is reeking havoc on my amps.
No amount of eq'ing can take them out either.
The only thing that will work is a compressor, which i don't have at the moment and so desperately need also to record with.
I'm thinking about employing one in the amp design as reducing these nasty peaks aren't going to change the character of the sound or the dynamics of the material by much if at all.
The bass (kick) drum click in spandel ballet's "true" is the worst one I have found so far.
When listening at a normal level nothing goes up above th normal peaks of the material except for that obnoxioos bass drum click which goes way up above the capabilties of my amp from a 2 to 4 watt level.
Just wasted power and dynamic range IMO. jer
It is the +20db high frequency peaks in some material that is reeking havoc on my amps.
No amount of eq'ing can take them out either.
The only thing that will work is a compressor, which i don't have at the moment and so desperately need also to record with.
I'm thinking about employing one in the amp design as reducing these nasty peaks aren't going to change the character of the sound or the dynamics of the material by much if at all.
The bass (kick) drum click in spandel ballet's "true" is the worst one I have found so far.
When listening at a normal level nothing goes up above th normal peaks of the material except for that obnoxioos bass drum click which goes way up above the capabilties of my amp from a 2 to 4 watt level.
Just wasted power and dynamic range IMO. jer
Here is a response quick pic from yesterday,nearfield at less than 6" or 8" from the two small panels.
Eq's flat from 80hz on up with maybe some 12khz shelving added I'm not sure but not more than about 3db typical.
The test was at a high volume with no noticeable clipping with a peavy PVM 520TN microphone.
The high end roll off might be due to not setting a higher sample rate before the test and also the microphone is a large diagphram type and usaly needs a little boost when recording as it is very acruate but a little on the warm side. Other than that it is a great microphone in case anybody was wondering.
One of these days I will get around to calibrating that channel as the mixer and amp especialy causes a slight roll off at 18khz. jer
Eq's flat from 80hz on up with maybe some 12khz shelving added I'm not sure but not more than about 3db typical.
The test was at a high volume with no noticeable clipping with a peavy PVM 520TN microphone.
The high end roll off might be due to not setting a higher sample rate before the test and also the microphone is a large diagphram type and usaly needs a little boost when recording as it is very acruate but a little on the warm side. Other than that it is a great microphone in case anybody was wondering.
One of these days I will get around to calibrating that channel as the mixer and amp especialy causes a slight roll off at 18khz. jer
Attachments
Then that is the way it will be done, i still have to pop the top on my other amp amp and check caps. Can you upgrade the power supply caps with a larger farad without any problems?what i have are 63 volt 10,000Mufarad times 4. I just looked amd now noticed the voltage, any suggestions on a source or is this worth pursuing?
check this out, put a little"preety" on my old drivers and listened in the tl box, extremely better sound, they look brand new and sound as i remembered a long time ago. it may have altered the thickness of the cone, but there is no more resonace at 500hz, very smooth now at low volume.
Attachments
Probably OK to do but I've only replaced caps with same values so I will defer to others with more experience than myself to advise you on that. One thing is for sure... if you amps are 20 years old, you would be wise to recap them. I didn't find any 63v caps on Digikey but they do have these 80v/10,000 uF snap-in type:
Digi-Key - P10645-ND (Manufacturer - ECE-T1KA103EA)
You would need to check the caps' drawing sheets (height/width, leads spacing) and make sure they will fit in your amps.
As allways, thanks Charlie, they are time to be replaced. I will take both amps apart and check the all the values of the caps, most is ceramic, so minimal replacing unless someone suggest otherwise, these are some pretty tough amps, no bubbles on any caps, no heat problems. just my younger stupidity days thiking these would work like car amps, older now, and these are nice amps, they are old, however, i have not used them for a long time, but as suggested, caps will be replaced(AND DISCHRGED CHARLIE) as soon as i can. Thanks again
re capping
Category Capacitors
Family Aluminum
Series T-HA
Capacitance 10000µF
Voltage Rating 80V
Tolerance ±20%
ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) 41.0 mOhm
Lifetime @ Temp. 3000 Hrs @ 105°C
Mounting Type Through Hole
Package / Case Radial - Snap-In
Size / Dimension 1.378" Dia x 3.150" H (35.00mm x 80.00mm)
Lead Spacing 0.886" (22.50mm)
Surface Mount Land Size -
Maximum Temperature -40°C ~ 105°C
Features General Purpose
Lifetime @ Temp. 3000 Hrs @ 105°C, ]\\\
these have way more than 3000 Hrs on mine, this is from the web site you submitted. the price, OUCH.
I have 1 farad caps at work. wire in seires is 40volt peak, 32 volt should be fine. I can achieve a 4 farad power supply, granted the caps are huge, but the price point is the same. Let me post some pics first, then make suggestions. Later, computer has to reboot. Mav
Category Capacitors
Family Aluminum
Series T-HA
Capacitance 10000µF
Voltage Rating 80V
Tolerance ±20%
ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) 41.0 mOhm
Lifetime @ Temp. 3000 Hrs @ 105°C
Mounting Type Through Hole
Package / Case Radial - Snap-In
Size / Dimension 1.378" Dia x 3.150" H (35.00mm x 80.00mm)
Lead Spacing 0.886" (22.50mm)
Surface Mount Land Size -
Maximum Temperature -40°C ~ 105°C
Features General Purpose
Lifetime @ Temp. 3000 Hrs @ 105°C, ]\\\
these have way more than 3000 Hrs on mine, this is from the web site you submitted. the price, OUCH.
I have 1 farad caps at work. wire in seires is 40volt peak, 32 volt should be fine. I can achieve a 4 farad power supply, granted the caps are huge, but the price point is the same. Let me post some pics first, then make suggestions. Later, computer has to reboot. Mav
You should ask Jer or someone with more experience than myself about substitutions. The 3000 hour life rating @ 105C means 3000 hours at a temperature hotter than the boiling point of water-- so in reality those caps would likely last much, much longer than 3000 hours.
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