I think that is the modern take on the ESS Heil.
That waffle like face has neo magnets behind it. They are pointing north pole to the diaphragm. Then behind the diaphragm there is another waffle, that has magnets set pointing south to the diaphragm. Straight tight magnetic lines running through the diaphragm.
Of course I could be wrong. Has any one opened up something and knows what is in there.
Thanks in advance.
Cool.
Srinath.
That waffle like face has neo magnets behind it. They are pointing north pole to the diaphragm. Then behind the diaphragm there is another waffle, that has magnets set pointing south to the diaphragm. Straight tight magnetic lines running through the diaphragm.
Of course I could be wrong. Has any one opened up something and knows what is in there.
Thanks in advance.
Cool.
Srinath.
Close as I can.
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-713.pdf
That's a sclose as I think I'll get for now.
Essentially its got a similar diaphragm made from kaladex and its sandwiched between neodymium magnets. Its also a bit larger than the largest heil. I would guess it will get the diaphragm flying when it has to, and that makes for a very fast accurate sound. Cant wait, have to do the crossover on mine and get it in the cabinet.
I have a question about the notch filter.
Is that supposed to be in place of the cross over ?
Or in addition to the cross over, and if so where is it put in.
Thanks in advance.
Cool.
Srinath.
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-713.pdf
That's a sclose as I think I'll get for now.
Essentially its got a similar diaphragm made from kaladex and its sandwiched between neodymium magnets. Its also a bit larger than the largest heil. I would guess it will get the diaphragm flying when it has to, and that makes for a very fast accurate sound. Cant wait, have to do the crossover on mine and get it in the cabinet.
I have a question about the notch filter.
Is that supposed to be in place of the cross over ?
Or in addition to the cross over, and if so where is it put in.
Thanks in advance.
Cool.
Srinath.
Aaaah great observation. OK now would there be a difference in real world terms.
BTW I cracked open a cheapo ribbon today. Yes, no accordion pleats and its straight forward and back not side to side accordion ... and dropping it into a tweeter spot in my old fisher st 740 with all new drivers but stock crossover has made a slight difference in how the highs come out. Of course it can only take 3000 and up, and my cross over is at 3500 and the jamo that I had was OK not the highest $$$ out there and well, a $5 ribbon tweeter beat a $5 non ribbon ... OK.
Of course now that you have told me this, I am going to build my own heil replica with neodymium ... even have a plan for the structure to keep magnets ... (a lightly modded gutter grate from lowes ... yea I aint cheaping out, buying the good stuff, all PVC construction.
Let me get that neo 8 that I just bought and let me see what it looks like ...
BTW I have an amp that belongs in the trash pile, cant wait till my tripath shows, then I mod it and see what the real good audio gear sounds like, and yes I have heard good audio before, and my wofe hasn't, so she thinking its all great what we have ... I'm like wincing when I hear some stuff.
Thanks man.
Cool.
Srinath.
BTW I cracked open a cheapo ribbon today. Yes, no accordion pleats and its straight forward and back not side to side accordion ... and dropping it into a tweeter spot in my old fisher st 740 with all new drivers but stock crossover has made a slight difference in how the highs come out. Of course it can only take 3000 and up, and my cross over is at 3500 and the jamo that I had was OK not the highest $$$ out there and well, a $5 ribbon tweeter beat a $5 non ribbon ... OK.
Of course now that you have told me this, I am going to build my own heil replica with neodymium ... even have a plan for the structure to keep magnets ... (a lightly modded gutter grate from lowes ... yea I aint cheaping out, buying the good stuff, all PVC construction.
Let me get that neo 8 that I just bought and let me see what it looks like ...
BTW I have an amp that belongs in the trash pile, cant wait till my tripath shows, then I mod it and see what the real good audio gear sounds like, and yes I have heard good audio before, and my wofe hasn't, so she thinking its all great what we have ... I'm like wincing when I hear some stuff.
Thanks man.
Cool.
Srinath.
OK I thought about it, does the neo 8 has magnets fitted on the sides ?
Only if that is how it is, it can drum front to back and make sound.
I suspect that its not that way. Because that 3 inch width will not have enough magnetism in the center I think. Further, the diapgragm will have to not be down, up, down up, because then the ribbon will rip when the adjacent coils are shoved in opposite directions. The thing will have to be like a comb, split into 10 or 20 or how many ever and go straight down.
Of course if it is a comb and it is side to side magnetic field it will drum and make sound, likely not tear for a long while, but likely more like a lower frequency than high freq. A 6 inch by 3 inch wide piece of polymer encased foil. Just a hypothesis mind you.
Cool.
srinath.
Only if that is how it is, it can drum front to back and make sound.
I suspect that its not that way. Because that 3 inch width will not have enough magnetism in the center I think. Further, the diapgragm will have to not be down, up, down up, because then the ribbon will rip when the adjacent coils are shoved in opposite directions. The thing will have to be like a comb, split into 10 or 20 or how many ever and go straight down.
Of course if it is a comb and it is side to side magnetic field it will drum and make sound, likely not tear for a long while, but likely more like a lower frequency than high freq. A 6 inch by 3 inch wide piece of polymer encased foil. Just a hypothesis mind you.
Cool.
srinath.
Building your Heil drivers sounds like quite an ambitious project. Good luck with that.
The notch filter is an addition to the crossover. It goes between the crossover and the neo.
The neo 3 would be better if you are crossing at 3.5 kHz. I have some 2-ways with the neo8-pdrs. The neo 8 has the notch filter and is crossed at 1 kHz to spiral horns with 6.5" Peerless woofers (Don't remember the model number). The midrange is very listenable and dynamic, but the top end isn't all that special and they don't have a whole lot of headroom. Certainly not as much headroom as the Heil style transducers. The pleating gives them much more surface area. For moderate listening volumes they sound fine, and they do work nicely with Tripath based amps.
Keep in mind if you are swapping tweeters you will need to make sure new tweeter is playing at the correct volume.
Roger
The notch filter is an addition to the crossover. It goes between the crossover and the neo.
The neo 3 would be better if you are crossing at 3.5 kHz. I have some 2-ways with the neo8-pdrs. The neo 8 has the notch filter and is crossed at 1 kHz to spiral horns with 6.5" Peerless woofers (Don't remember the model number). The midrange is very listenable and dynamic, but the top end isn't all that special and they don't have a whole lot of headroom. Certainly not as much headroom as the Heil style transducers. The pleating gives them much more surface area. For moderate listening volumes they sound fine, and they do work nicely with Tripath based amps.
Keep in mind if you are swapping tweeters you will need to make sure new tweeter is playing at the correct volume.
Roger
Believe it or not, I have been to moscow ID, Used to live in spokane WA.
OK 1K was my thought for cross over a 2nd order I was thinking, attentuator on neo - yes, but did you mean the notch filter is already in the neo 8 or you're saying you have it in yours.
I found a cut away schematic of the neo 8's here -
http://www.hometheatermag.com/images/archivesart/606BG.2.jpg
OK so I should go on with my heil ... you see, I have of late swapped out a lot of old school magnets with neo's. I yanked out a 81 xs650 motorcycle's alternator electromagnet and fitted with a aluminum drum with 24 N50 magnets. It made so much charge that I was afraid of burning up the Reg/rectifier. Pulled out 1 magnet in each pole - made for a lop sided pole, but now the thing charges fine and doesn't fry the R/R.
Neo's are available in that perfect 1/4" width 2" length and 1/16" thick, I can easily mount them with 1/4 inch gap between 2 angle aluminum pieces so that they are staring at the diaphragm point blank.
Think about that, a 1/4" horizontal every 1/4" and nothing else between the heil and your ear. No chunky magnet, no random angle pieces on the ends, and no metallic combs ... I could in fact even do 1/8th every 1/8. Neodymium magnets are really an engineers dream. Even the way they make them is rather cool.
The fear is that I put so much magnetic flux across the poor little 70's neo that I send the wires flying across the room when I swicth it on.
Let me try the neo 8's, then I will run to Winston and listen to this guy's Heil and then I'd know. They're supposed to turn off @ 18K, and I may pair them with my dayton 300 which is currently in my fisher cabinets, and the first step will be to hang the neo in front of it and see how it sounds.
Cool.
Srinath.
OK 1K was my thought for cross over a 2nd order I was thinking, attentuator on neo - yes, but did you mean the notch filter is already in the neo 8 or you're saying you have it in yours.
I found a cut away schematic of the neo 8's here -
http://www.hometheatermag.com/images/archivesart/606BG.2.jpg
OK so I should go on with my heil ... you see, I have of late swapped out a lot of old school magnets with neo's. I yanked out a 81 xs650 motorcycle's alternator electromagnet and fitted with a aluminum drum with 24 N50 magnets. It made so much charge that I was afraid of burning up the Reg/rectifier. Pulled out 1 magnet in each pole - made for a lop sided pole, but now the thing charges fine and doesn't fry the R/R.
Neo's are available in that perfect 1/4" width 2" length and 1/16" thick, I can easily mount them with 1/4 inch gap between 2 angle aluminum pieces so that they are staring at the diaphragm point blank.
Think about that, a 1/4" horizontal every 1/4" and nothing else between the heil and your ear. No chunky magnet, no random angle pieces on the ends, and no metallic combs ... I could in fact even do 1/8th every 1/8. Neodymium magnets are really an engineers dream. Even the way they make them is rather cool.
The fear is that I put so much magnetic flux across the poor little 70's neo that I send the wires flying across the room when I swicth it on.
Let me try the neo 8's, then I will run to Winston and listen to this guy's Heil and then I'd know. They're supposed to turn off @ 18K, and I may pair them with my dayton 300 which is currently in my fisher cabinets, and the first step will be to hang the neo in front of it and see how it sounds.
Cool.
Srinath.
Cool, I love the northwest.
I meant that my neo8s have the notch filter described in the BG pdf. Nice find on the cut away.
Out of curiosity, is the ST-470 a 3-way? If so, what mid are you using? For your application I might opt to cross the neo8 at 2-2.5 kHz if you have a nice mid. It would give you a bit of extra volume.
I meant that my neo8s have the notch filter described in the BG pdf. Nice find on the cut away.
Out of curiosity, is the ST-470 a 3-way? If so, what mid are you using? For your application I might opt to cross the neo8 at 2-2.5 kHz if you have a nice mid. It would give you a bit of extra volume.
ST 740 is a 3 way with a 2nd order crossover, I am yet to exactly find out its crossover points, but 3500 is about where.
I am making my own 2 way and using the 12 inch woofer and the cabinet for now.
I am thinking of making a frame just for the neo and letting it sit on top of the cabinet in open air where front and rear is out open.
However why do you think it would work @ 2500+ in a 3 way. Its linear from 1000 almost. I would think in a 2 way, my woofer takes under 1000 and it gets over 1000.
Lets see.
Cool.
Srinath.
I am making my own 2 way and using the 12 inch woofer and the cabinet for now.
I am thinking of making a frame just for the neo and letting it sit on top of the cabinet in open air where front and rear is out open.
However why do you think it would work @ 2500+ in a 3 way. Its linear from 1000 almost. I would think in a 2 way, my woofer takes under 1000 and it gets over 1000.
Lets see.
Cool.
Srinath.
I see, that makes more sense now. Crossing at 2500 saves displacement which means the tweeter can play louder before it starts to distort, but for now, I'd suggest not pursuing that option because it makes designing a crossover much more difficult.
To cross the Dayton DC300 at 1000 you might need to add a zobel network to counter the rising impedance of the driver. You might also want to add a notch filter at 2 kHz even though it is outside of the woofer's bandpass. I would highly suggest trying Jeff Bagby's Passive Crossover Designer. It takes some of the guess work out of the design.
To cross the Dayton DC300 at 1000 you might need to add a zobel network to counter the rising impedance of the driver. You might also want to add a notch filter at 2 kHz even though it is outside of the woofer's bandpass. I would highly suggest trying Jeff Bagby's Passive Crossover Designer. It takes some of the guess work out of the design.
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The new heil is made in germany or somewhere -
Untitled Document
Scroll to the bottom.
That if you ask me is a pair of neodymium magnets on either side with a steel grill bridging them.
I really think its an item any one can make, and slap in the diaphragm.
Now they say the diaphragm is .0005 inch thick. Is that after the thing is pleated or before ? have to buy a heil diaphragm to figure it out I guess.
Cool.
Srinath.
Untitled Document
Scroll to the bottom.
That if you ask me is a pair of neodymium magnets on either side with a steel grill bridging them.
I really think its an item any one can make, and slap in the diaphragm.
Now they say the diaphragm is .0005 inch thick. Is that after the thing is pleated or before ? have to buy a heil diaphragm to figure it out I guess.
Cool.
Srinath.
I got the neo 8's and yes they are magents facing a set of wires. I cannot see how it can survive if it wasn't accordion type covering the wires.
Also I know why no one has split one of these. They are riveted shut. I may however sometime in the future split one. cannot drill it cos the shavings will get into the magnets and shards of it can tear the diaphragm. It has to be mechanically un riveted and as we do 1 we can re fit it with small bolts and then split them all when its all unriveted cos if it wasn't in 1 piece tightly bolted together, the unriveting forces will bend stuff and you can see how it was put together. Of course I am the master at dealing wiht this delicate crap ... so its really got me licking my lips.
Cool.
Srinath.
Also I know why no one has split one of these. They are riveted shut. I may however sometime in the future split one. cannot drill it cos the shavings will get into the magnets and shards of it can tear the diaphragm. It has to be mechanically un riveted and as we do 1 we can re fit it with small bolts and then split them all when its all unriveted cos if it wasn't in 1 piece tightly bolted together, the unriveting forces will bend stuff and you can see how it was put together. Of course I am the master at dealing wiht this delicate crap ... so its really got me licking my lips.
Cool.
Srinath.
Whooo hooo I won a heil off fleabay ... quite a bit cheaper than I had feared ... now in the interest of science (and ripping off the heil) I'll check what the differences between the neo and the heil are ... hopefully wihtout ruining the neo. Of course heil is easy to open and refit.
I will get back to y'all.
BTW in the space of the original tweeter in my fisher box, with the stock cross over 3500 or so it pretty much is par with the cheapo ribbon I got ... I need to do something and send more output to it I think. The stage I am at is collecting ... I'll build when I have all the needed stuff so I am building for stuff I got. Not for stuff I dont.
Cool.
Srinath.
I will get back to y'all.
BTW in the space of the original tweeter in my fisher box, with the stock cross over 3500 or so it pretty much is par with the cheapo ribbon I got ... I need to do something and send more output to it I think. The stage I am at is collecting ... I'll build when I have all the needed stuff so I am building for stuff I got. Not for stuff I dont.
Cool.
Srinath.
There is a mid in that fisher cabinet.The neo I would think is getting 3-3500 and up ...
The realistic amp actually made a my onkyo's sound a 1000 times better. I will soon put the fishers with neo's on the realistic amp. I'll know then.
Also its possible the neo is just wires wrapped in some material. No membrane, it will move air without a dirphragm too, just not as much air ... but couple that with the mondo neodymium magnetic field it may do it ...
Heil is the next experiment. Then I put em on a better amp and build a cross over. Neo's take 3 months to break in ... msybe I use em as is, and make the crossover ets in a few months.
Cool.
Srinath.
The realistic amp actually made a my onkyo's sound a 1000 times better. I will soon put the fishers with neo's on the realistic amp. I'll know then.
Also its possible the neo is just wires wrapped in some material. No membrane, it will move air without a dirphragm too, just not as much air ... but couple that with the mondo neodymium magnetic field it may do it ...
Heil is the next experiment. Then I put em on a better amp and build a cross over. Neo's take 3 months to break in ... msybe I use em as is, and make the crossover ets in a few months.
Cool.
Srinath.
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