Hi, i just bought a pair this week, verry bad shape, at least the high gloss looks like mat paint job, so dirty as hell. so is the diagraph. so first of al verry low SPL. so because i did some coating and diagraph replacements of my much smaller solosound a few times. i thoug well, lets get everything out en recoat and then play again. well this whas not that easy and failled big time!!
first its a hell to get the panels out of the frame, finally after 2 hours of using a knife to try to cut the glue and using a device to pull them appart, i finally tried a verry simple ussing a putty knife and a hammer to get betweet the wood and the panel and cut the glue, after that it whas verry easy to get the pannel out of the frame with a screw driver.
then getting the panel appart without breaking the mylar FAILED!!! i read somewhere they only used some glue once every few centimeter. well no they glued the whole thing could not open them up without tearing the whole mylar 🙁. but then again the mylar looked like the frame LOADS of dirt, so new mylar wont be that bad after al.
ok mylar gone then remove al the cilicon kit they used to put the frames together (or at least i think its this kind of kit) with the putty knife it whas again hell, its really difficult to get everything clean. then i tried white spirit let it soke for 20 seconds and then it goes really really smooth, at least i learned something.
ok Now the real problem. i managed to get a nice new mylar on the cleaned frame, also on the other half of the frame there is a koper tape runing all the way allong the spacers en i end at the point where i begun. wel i coated the mylar with the hobby glue stuff and alcohol, this worked for me serveral times with the solosound so should work i think.
now i got it in a test setting because of these little problems that always occour. and that is my SPL is quit low, in comparison i have a fullrange driver next to it that has an SPL of 87 dB a watt, the ES200 is rated 88dB for all i know, but the Es200 is for sure 4-6 dB softer. also when volume turned up at a level i dont recomend for my little fullrange the sound gets distorted especially in the highs with female voices, or big dynamics, this could be my amp but im not sure because he has some reserves. also it looks that when first turning on the ES200 hes more effecient then after like 10 minutes.
another thing the panel is at the moment out of his frame standing on the ground, this also contribute for a bit lower spl i gues, but even then i cant imagine people pay so much money for a speaker that sounds great but play sooooo darn soft i could not even enjoy dynamics in ochestra's or film music.
so any help or sugestions are welcome, im a bit desperate i really would like to reassemble these beautifull speakers and enjoy the listening.
by the way my amp is a PIONEER A757 Reference
first its a hell to get the panels out of the frame, finally after 2 hours of using a knife to try to cut the glue and using a device to pull them appart, i finally tried a verry simple ussing a putty knife and a hammer to get betweet the wood and the panel and cut the glue, after that it whas verry easy to get the pannel out of the frame with a screw driver.
then getting the panel appart without breaking the mylar FAILED!!! i read somewhere they only used some glue once every few centimeter. well no they glued the whole thing could not open them up without tearing the whole mylar 🙁. but then again the mylar looked like the frame LOADS of dirt, so new mylar wont be that bad after al.
ok mylar gone then remove al the cilicon kit they used to put the frames together (or at least i think its this kind of kit) with the putty knife it whas again hell, its really difficult to get everything clean. then i tried white spirit let it soke for 20 seconds and then it goes really really smooth, at least i learned something.
ok Now the real problem. i managed to get a nice new mylar on the cleaned frame, also on the other half of the frame there is a koper tape runing all the way allong the spacers en i end at the point where i begun. wel i coated the mylar with the hobby glue stuff and alcohol, this worked for me serveral times with the solosound so should work i think.
now i got it in a test setting because of these little problems that always occour. and that is my SPL is quit low, in comparison i have a fullrange driver next to it that has an SPL of 87 dB a watt, the ES200 is rated 88dB for all i know, but the Es200 is for sure 4-6 dB softer. also when volume turned up at a level i dont recomend for my little fullrange the sound gets distorted especially in the highs with female voices, or big dynamics, this could be my amp but im not sure because he has some reserves. also it looks that when first turning on the ES200 hes more effecient then after like 10 minutes.
another thing the panel is at the moment out of his frame standing on the ground, this also contribute for a bit lower spl i gues, but even then i cant imagine people pay so much money for a speaker that sounds great but play sooooo darn soft i could not even enjoy dynamics in ochestra's or film music.
so any help or sugestions are welcome, im a bit desperate i really would like to reassemble these beautifull speakers and enjoy the listening.
by the way my amp is a PIONEER A757 Reference
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I think that the problem could be your coating material or your transformers. It sounds like the transformers are saturated or the diaphragm wasn't conducting well.
Wachara C.
Wachara C.
changed the left tranies with the right tranies, think there are ok, or the both have to been broke 🙂
by the way another thing that whas wrong with the spreakers was the fact that one of the resistors to split membrane for the high tones, was corroded one on one panel even that bad it snaped, so i had to resolder those to resistors. maybe someone have seen it before and knows what happend there and what the consequences are 🙂
by the way another thing that whas wrong with the spreakers was the fact that one of the resistors to split membrane for the high tones, was corroded one on one panel even that bad it snaped, so i had to resolder those to resistors. maybe someone have seen it before and knows what happend there and what the consequences are 🙂
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I've seen this before
High voltage ---discharge----ozone, the strongest oxidizer of all
Bad joints = bad sound. Can sound like a box without tweeter.
edit: I've got a pair of es200 myself and they will go LOUD, without distortion, on a modest (but high quality zero feedback) amplifier. I took them on the esl-club meeting 2008.
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of so for the test, i will get the resistors out of the way completly , if this helps i wil get some new ones in about 20 minutes haha. lets test
ok well that did not work, although they looked bad they still worked. i now tried using glue graphite and alcohol to coat the places where the copper strip of the other panel wil contact the mylar. this increased the SPL with about 3 dB still way softer then my rated 87 dB fullrange cone speaker. so now i do another layer and also apply second coating of glue stuff. if this works i found my problem but have to find again all the amounts of ingriedients on a new or washed panel, because al the second layers and stuff i lost count 🙂 hate it i do stuf always 3 times!
by the way funny MJ that you mentioned ur es200's i think i looked at a picture of them yesterday with you standing in front of them in the listening room 🙂
i still want to come to the ESL meeting one day, last time i had another appointment 🙁 there is much to learn i believe and listen ofcourse.
by the way funny MJ that you mentioned ur es200's i think i looked at a picture of them yesterday with you standing in front of them in the listening room 🙂
i still want to come to the ESL meeting one day, last time i had another appointment 🙁 there is much to learn i believe and listen ofcourse.
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ok maybe somebody can clear this up.
the spl increased after the graphite along the copper tape, but now i dont see any more improvemts that would upp the SPL, if anybody has an idea pls say so.
well this is what i finfd strange in the book of fikier he states the ES200RS has an efficiency of 88dB and a maximum SPL of 92 dB the 88 is for one watt, double that and you would have 2 watt and 91 dB double that and you would have 94 with 4 watts.
????? cant believe 4 watt would be enough, if so then i really have a problem here.
the spl increased after the graphite along the copper tape, but now i dont see any more improvemts that would upp the SPL, if anybody has an idea pls say so.
well this is what i finfd strange in the book of fikier he states the ES200RS has an efficiency of 88dB and a maximum SPL of 92 dB the 88 is for one watt, double that and you would have 2 watt and 91 dB double that and you would have 94 with 4 watts.
????? cant believe 4 watt would be enough, if so then i really have a problem here.
Hi
Yes, that's me on the picture. Unfortunately you weren't there cause that might have been a good, or the best, opportunity to evaluate the max. spl of this speaker.
The es200 really doesn't need large amplifiers to come alive. In fact, the max SPL is quite amazing for a relatively small active area of around 0,2 m2.
Martin-Jan
Hi Wrinex,
a lot of ESL makers claim that their fullrange ESL reach 88dB sensitivity or even higher. I do not know where this comes from. Some say you need to add 6dB due to room reflections and so on......
Take a look to measuremts in some hifi magacines have done in the past of the audiostatics. In best case you reach 81 db in the mids, which are even overrated to the rest of the frequency range.
All audiostatics i measured ended up with 78-79 dB/1m/2,83V) in average, which is not very bad for a fullrange ESL. The best you might get from a fullrange is up to 82dB.
Its no secret that e.g. a cone fullranger will play significantly louder at the same input signal level.
Capaciti
a lot of ESL makers claim that their fullrange ESL reach 88dB sensitivity or even higher. I do not know where this comes from. Some say you need to add 6dB due to room reflections and so on......
Take a look to measuremts in some hifi magacines have done in the past of the audiostatics. In best case you reach 81 db in the mids, which are even overrated to the rest of the frequency range.
All audiostatics i measured ended up with 78-79 dB/1m/2,83V) in average, which is not very bad for a fullrange ESL. The best you might get from a fullrange is up to 82dB.
Its no secret that e.g. a cone fullranger will play significantly louder at the same input signal level.
Capaciti
ok then maybe the SPL is right. but i cant say this is the SPL i would like to listen to a ochestra, if i only knew how loud they sound original🙂 cant believe its so low cant listen to music always on the maximum power. well gone try some more tomorrow. what coating did you use MJ and what coating do other people use fro this one.
i really dont know what else it could be, elecronics aint possible, i believe the tranies are in series either they work or they dont if one fails, well th high current is working i can confirm that by times i got shocked. my copper foil is conductive and cant be enything wrong with. the mylar tension can be a bit to high or maybe a bit to low, but that does not afflect the problem i have. so maybe coating then?
i use 8 drops of glue from the hema (water based) , and it wil mix really nice with the alcohol ketonatus 70%. or do i raelly have to get the velpon glue ? i cant imagen its the same.
i really dont know what else it could be, elecronics aint possible, i believe the tranies are in series either they work or they dont if one fails, well th high current is working i can confirm that by times i got shocked. my copper foil is conductive and cant be enything wrong with. the mylar tension can be a bit to high or maybe a bit to low, but that does not afflect the problem i have. so maybe coating then?
i use 8 drops of glue from the hema (water based) , and it wil mix really nice with the alcohol ketonatus 70%. or do i raelly have to get the velpon glue ? i cant imagen its the same.
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hmm i noticed that when i just connect them to power i have an SPL i can manage then after a minute or five it has dropped in SPL. is this leakage ?, and if so what can i do about it, where is it leaking to ? is it my pertinax frame its leaking to ? the metal support beams do make arcing sounds when i touch them. do you have the same MJ ? or did you removes the pertinax structure. i could change it to trespa, but then again this speaker worked with pertinax when some guy bought it. why not now ?
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Hi,
It is normal to feel a very, very small shock sometimes ( I can't use the word shock here, more like a very small tick) when touching the metal bars. The bars seem to charge up a little someway. While plexiglas (which I used for my own DIY projects) might be a better choice regarding insulation properties, the original pertinax simply works fine and I did not make any attempts to change it. Leaving the construction saves you a lot of time and effort, and avoids the risk of damaging the speaker.
It is normal to feel a very, very small shock sometimes ( I can't use the word shock here, more like a very small tick) when touching the metal bars. The bars seem to charge up a little someway. While plexiglas (which I used for my own DIY projects) might be a better choice regarding insulation properties, the original pertinax simply works fine and I did not make any attempts to change it. Leaving the construction saves you a lot of time and effort, and avoids the risk of damaging the speaker.
yep thats true and also the reason why i kept it, they served somone for serveral years so it should work fine. bye the way i posted another thread about losing spl within 10 minutes, do you know anything about that?
yeah nothing wrong there, it does'nt matter if i give it the full load or just half way, the efficiency just drops over time, when i then disconnnect the HS unit. and reconnect is after about 10 minutes its starts again HIGH efficiency and after 10 mins much less.
Perhaps your panel is unstable, or in other words the diaphragm is collapsing into one of the stators. If this is the case then the panel should remain constant SPL with a lower HT setting. Another way to check is a visual inspection of the diaphragm with a flash light.
To check for leakage you could insert a 'blinker circuit' which consists of a neon bulb and a small high voltage capacitor in between the HT supply and the diaphragm. There should be more info on how to do this on this forum (do a search).
To check for leakage you could insert a 'blinker circuit' which consists of a neon bulb and a small high voltage capacitor in between the HT supply and the diaphragm. There should be more info on how to do this on this forum (do a search).
Thx arend, i will take a look at the blinker circuit. the mylar is not against one stator for all i know, dont hear any weird sound but will tak a look with flashlight.
ok build the binker circuit 🙂 and , well it flashes 2 a sec so that would be not good. leakage... damn no idea wheres thats coming from and where it's going to especially. on question that might be it. i have pertinax stators, and i boltet them together with normal steel bolts, does that really matter ?
The blinker circuit only gives you a rough idea what's going on. Maybe it is a bit too quick to say there is too much leaking just based on two blinks/second.
Significant leakage will cause the HV to drop. Can you measure this?
Sometimes it is hard to restore an old ESL. Did you consider some prof. refurbishment like Audiofinesse?
I wouldn't worry about the metal bolts unless they are touching the HV directly (copper strip etc)
Significant leakage will cause the HV to drop. Can you measure this?
Sometimes it is hard to restore an old ESL. Did you consider some prof. refurbishment like Audiofinesse?
I wouldn't worry about the metal bolts unless they are touching the HV directly (copper strip etc)
If you have a high resistance coating then two blinks / second is too much. But you are probably using a coating with a surface resistance lower than 1E8 Ohms/sq and in that case two blinks per second is not a big problem. And it is not high enough to drain the power supply. If you had severe drainage the bulb would be glowing permanently.
Your panel is equipped with a charge ring if I remember correctly, so leakage across the border is not an issue (unless you have the frame touching the film inside the ring).
I suspect that charge is leaking at the wire supports or spacers or something like that. Anything that is touching or nearby the film (especially metal/conductors) is a suspect. You might spot the location of a leak by breathing heavily on it from nearby and monitor the neon indicator. The moisture from your breath will increase the leakage and this shows as rapid blinking. Also if you have used graphite as a coating then perhaps some graphite got into places it should not be.
By the way in a perfectly insulated panel the light blinks about once a minute or less once the panel is charged. In the beginning you would see a couple of blinks and the time between blinks should increase rapidly.
Your panel is equipped with a charge ring if I remember correctly, so leakage across the border is not an issue (unless you have the frame touching the film inside the ring).
I suspect that charge is leaking at the wire supports or spacers or something like that. Anything that is touching or nearby the film (especially metal/conductors) is a suspect. You might spot the location of a leak by breathing heavily on it from nearby and monitor the neon indicator. The moisture from your breath will increase the leakage and this shows as rapid blinking. Also if you have used graphite as a coating then perhaps some graphite got into places it should not be.
By the way in a perfectly insulated panel the light blinks about once a minute or less once the panel is charged. In the beginning you would see a couple of blinks and the time between blinks should increase rapidly.
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