Hi Olaf
I tuned the Panel like Apogee 35Hz 40Hz 45Hz.
Think that the corugation is needed to mount the diagram to the speaker it doens't bent and you can stretch it to the desired length and this way it doesn't wrinkle.
You don't need the corrugation for the sound I think.
Audioquest I use a rotary cutter like this one Welcome to Olfa
Rob
That's what I bought. 2 x 2 1/4" wheels, mounted them with a spacer between the blades and it cuts a perfect 3/32" slit (or whatever width I want) in my test pieces.
No further development, with the fact that I got rid of all the rattle, there isn't much reason to replace them other than for cosmetics. There's a little mark at the top on one panel which you can't notice under most conditions or if you are close. The tweeters and mid range I took apart and retensioned and they sound fabulous now. The foam was starting to deteriorate, not to the point of crumbling but it had lost it's tension so there was lack of support. What I did was buy some Permatex flowable silicone sealant and flowed it into the perimeter where the foam meets the foil panel. You can't see it and it completely eliminated the rattle. Amazing sealant that is very thin. All I did was position the speaker at about 45 degrees each of the 4 sides and carefully flow the sealant onto the original foam which absorbed it like water and once dry fully supportive once again.
Maybe one day if I need a project I'll hunt down some rollers to corrugate the bass panel but right now I'm rebuilding a pair of Martin Logan CLS
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Last edited:
I was mainly asking how far you got with sourcing the right materials to make the panels. I did some research years ago but let it go.
Can you list what you found?
Yes, I'm already aware of the solicone oil technique from the old Apogee forum. Another option is to first run a string along the rabbit and remove the old foam. You then can slip in new foam by tucking it in along the path. This works for the front of the panel rather easily and avoids any potential mess with the silicone oil. As for the rear, the oil technique is the only option.
As for a roller: I had access to a machine shop where I could have had rollers made. I then found a site where someone wrote a scientific paper on a technique which I was going to use to replace traditional corrugating.
Basically, someone developed a mathematiccal model and made patters which dampen resonances in materials that can be imprinted with the patterns. I was going to imbed this pattern into a rubber roller (making the roller surface three dimensional) and then roll the pattern onto the panel. It is not a random pattern but looks like it is. The application is not critical, you just roll it on and cover the entire surface.
The Apogee corrugation also helps in the longevity of the panel so, to help with that now that I used this alternative corrugation, I was going to adhere the panel to a butyl surround - left and right - and clamp this to the braces. The braces would have several points along them to tune the panel, as in the original design. In fact you can make as many tuning points as you like.
I like the butyl surround idea because you don't need to glue it down, hence making the panel serviceable.
A lot of ideas but little interest and time to pursue them...
Can you list what you found?
Yes, I'm already aware of the solicone oil technique from the old Apogee forum. Another option is to first run a string along the rabbit and remove the old foam. You then can slip in new foam by tucking it in along the path. This works for the front of the panel rather easily and avoids any potential mess with the silicone oil. As for the rear, the oil technique is the only option.
As for a roller: I had access to a machine shop where I could have had rollers made. I then found a site where someone wrote a scientific paper on a technique which I was going to use to replace traditional corrugating.
Basically, someone developed a mathematiccal model and made patters which dampen resonances in materials that can be imprinted with the patterns. I was going to imbed this pattern into a rubber roller (making the roller surface three dimensional) and then roll the pattern onto the panel. It is not a random pattern but looks like it is. The application is not critical, you just roll it on and cover the entire surface.
The Apogee corrugation also helps in the longevity of the panel so, to help with that now that I used this alternative corrugation, I was going to adhere the panel to a butyl surround - left and right - and clamp this to the braces. The braces would have several points along them to tune the panel, as in the original design. In fact you can make as many tuning points as you like.
I like the butyl surround idea because you don't need to glue it down, hence making the panel serviceable.
A lot of ideas but little interest and time to pursue them...
Ha!, audioquest, I did my Apogees (Duetta Signatures) using Permatex sealant - I mixed with silicone oil - if you think the Permatex alone is soft and flowable, the mix with oil makes it much less viscous, - which is perfect for gravity running down the backside of the panel...and quite a bit softer a lighter when cured than the Permatex straight up...
Crazy that I also am re-mylaring a pair of CLS. I bought some 2micron that was totally impossible to work with, and now working with 6 micron mylar. I have also used 12 micron Aluminized mylar that worked out OK...I only needed 1/2 of the Bias voltage and it worked quite well, just that the sound mostly emanated from a few areas only (the areas closest to the stator of course). A proof of concept more than anything else...great spl tho, and will continue experimenting with it...
I used a fishing scale and masking tape onto a table. Go to around 4.5 kg (I think I read that somewhere). The tension is only in the vertical. The horizontal tension should be only what is needed to get the wrinkles out.
What are you using for adhesive? 3M double sided tape? I am thinking of using Velcro for the front stator so I can remove (thin when compressed). I have Licron (not used it tho), but I also successfully used Lauryl Sulfate (clear hand soap from Target)...
What are you using for adhesive? 3M double sided tape? I am thinking of using Velcro for the front stator so I can remove (thin when compressed). I have Licron (not used it tho), but I also successfully used Lauryl Sulfate (clear hand soap from Target)...
Thanks for the tension info. I was going to try Elvamide as Lycron is next to impossible to get in Canada. Does that soap actually last? I'm using DS tape, but was also thinking of a different means to fasten the panels together so they could be more easily taken apart if need be. Not sure how I'll do that yet, maybe just make a way to clamp them into the frame so they stay tight
John65b thanks for the info.
I am using the Soap with graphite mix, right were the bias feeds meets the mylar,this is were most re-worket panels fail!
Thank you Calvin for this info, this has saved me a LOt of time an pain!
Works great! better than anything yet,but i find the soap adds to much mass to rest of the panel.
So the turtie wax F21 super protecrant work the best as Mylar coating ,well to day!
Its as good as soap an can be put on in a liter coat.
An you can get 10oz for $2.i have a ML panels that have worket great for over 10mo.
I am using the Soap with graphite mix, right were the bias feeds meets the mylar,this is were most re-worket panels fail!
Thank you Calvin for this info, this has saved me a LOt of time an pain!
Works great! better than anything yet,but i find the soap adds to much mass to rest of the panel.
So the turtie wax F21 super protecrant work the best as Mylar coating ,well to day!
Its as good as soap an can be put on in a liter coat.
An you can get 10oz for $2.i have a ML panels that have worket great for over 10mo.
Acklands Grainger in North Battleford Sask has 10 cans of Licron crystal spray in stock, I bought 2 of the 12 can case. Phone 1-306-445-2466. Give them a buzzAl
Thanks for that, I'll give them a call
Acklands Grainger in North Battleford Sask has 10 cans of Licron crystal spray in stock, I bought 2 of the 12 can case. Phone 1-306-445-2466. Give them a buzz
I gave them a ring, $88 a can here in Canada. I think it's $36 in the US. Gotta love this Free Trade concept!
Never tried Elvamide yet but Licron has never failed me since I started using it some 10 years ago.
I even after the diaphragm's were completely soiled it still worked flawlessly.
And after a good cleaning the sound was completely restored to as they originally were.
I have this documented in one of the coatings threads.
The Crystal formula is the newest version and Licron is the original formula, either one works but Crystal is the one you should try to get as it is super super thin and almost transparent, it also has a higher overall resistance as well.
It came about sometime in early 2010.
I will be giving the Turtle Wax F-21 stuff a try some time as well and see how it works out.
jer
I even after the diaphragm's were completely soiled it still worked flawlessly.
And after a good cleaning the sound was completely restored to as they originally were.
I have this documented in one of the coatings threads.
The Crystal formula is the newest version and Licron is the original formula, either one works but Crystal is the one you should try to get as it is super super thin and almost transparent, it also has a higher overall resistance as well.
It came about sometime in early 2010.
I will be giving the Turtle Wax F-21 stuff a try some time as well and see how it works out.
jer
Never tried Elvamide yet but Licron has never failed me since I started using it some 10 years ago.
I even after the diaphragm's were completely soiled it still worked flawlessly.
And after a good cleaning the sound was completely restored to as they originally were.
I have this documented in one of the coatings threads.
The Crystal formula is the newest version and Licron is the original formula, either one works but Crystal is the one you should try to get as it is super super thin and almost transparent, it also has a higher overall resistance as well.
It came about sometime in early 2010.
I will be giving the Turtle Wax F-21 stuff a try some time as well and see how it works out.
jer
Thanks for all of that. I looked at the Turtle Wax, but I'm skeptical about how long it will last. I talked to another person at that more or less local supplier that was suggested I try and now the price is $43 plus shipping so about $51 so I'm going to give the Licron Crystal a try.
I built a jig to hold the panel, and also a flexible one to attach the membrane to for installation to the stator . It should essentially work like the Shakman process, just manual as I don't need a high volume production unit.
I'll post some photos next week when the project is complete