i think you got me wrong i know there is mylar with damped alu on it used in capacitors. but i never seen that in a Martin Logan, if ML stands for that at least. And if there was there is no reason to coat it, i think i am getting Tyu wrong i think
because this all makes no sense haha here is measured of the coating i sprayed this afternoon. can be a bit smoother i think if i put the whole stuff trough a filter before spraying...
YouTube
yeah if your audio is ont he foil, then a low resistance coating might be necessary or you lose out on high frequencies. then the stators might be high resistance if you want
like conductive plastics. still is cool to make someday. heavy loaded carbon black plastic. only thing is that those inverted esl's are not as good as the normal ones. still cool After hearing an owning a lot of ESLs.. I think the Acoustat are the winner for the full rang type panels....an today acoustats are chep an ezey to find....Quad an Sound lab also are good....but also big cost..but thay have there problems with there panels....an being driving...then there ML....an others
Now I know this is a Diy site....but trying to building A ESL panel with out owning,hearing other ESLs ....that not the way my diy brain works.. I need a reference!
I see some ESL panel diyers have not heard other ESL.....An I can see ....Maybe....how some one needing-trying to building a better mousetrap....I am not agent it.....looks tuff with out a reference.
There a lot of info on the Web about how all these ESL makers build
there panels, mylar,coating,stepup tranfourmers,bias setups,crossovers,.....
ML has done a lot expamintashion...I see this on youtube...an yes thay add a coating to there medlized mylar....
But as far as anyone here.... feeling that thay have a great coating......lycron look like it the winner.
Now I know this is a Diy site....but trying to building A ESL panel with out owning,hearing other ESLs ....that not the way my diy brain works.. I need a reference!
I see some ESL panel diyers have not heard other ESL.....An I can see ....Maybe....how some one needing-trying to building a better mousetrap....I am not agent it.....looks tuff with out a reference.
There a lot of info on the Web about how all these ESL makers build
there panels, mylar,coating,stepup tranfourmers,bias setups,crossovers,.....
ML has done a lot expamintashion...I see this on youtube...an yes thay add a coating to there medlized mylar....
But as far as anyone here.... feeling that thay have a great coating......lycron look like it the winner.
Wrinex....you have to do your own searching to find info on ML...it been years....1995-6, that I have been buying, reworking using ML dead panels...
Sorry I am not like others here, that can go back pull up-find old post an info thay have read years ago...There was youtube info on ML being made.... go there to start...maybe the info is still there?
Also I got a lot of info from the old ML Services Department...in the 1990....I was in the Audio bizz an became friends with the guy who did all the speaker carossover,tone shaping setups, CLS tranfourmers,panel work....an he new all the inter workings of there panels mylar setups...the way thay did-do there mylar is medlize...(but done diff)...to keep the mylar as clear as thay can.....so we can see though there panels....for looks, only aesthetic!
Over the years I have seen there panels change....I just saw a pr of ML that were glued all the way around the panels...top, sides an bottem...before this was only done to the CLS......most of there older panels....were only glued togather at the top an bottem
"Work in last 20 years was done before" ....ML has done a lot expamintashion..........your are right, most of there work like all esl info has been done befor....I gess the word(Lot).... make what you well out of that!
WrineX.....you are working on putting some type coating on mylar..it dose not look like it working any better than the Lyicron....But why do you care, what ML dose...there mylar cost more not eazy to get, if at all ....I say try to...get some older ML speaker an open them up an see how there made....I only paid $2-300 for a pr of old none working CLSs
an there 12"X46" speakers for as low as $40. a pr of none working speakers
Here are just two, of the pr of speaker I have rework...I took these pic as thay play today, now....Thay play as good are better then new...other owners of there new spearks have told me.
Now for what I see of the work you have done...I feel you could do as good if not better re-working ML....than I ever have...
keep up your good work...
Sorry I am not like others here, that can go back pull up-find old post an info thay have read years ago...There was youtube info on ML being made.... go there to start...maybe the info is still there?
Also I got a lot of info from the old ML Services Department...in the 1990....I was in the Audio bizz an became friends with the guy who did all the speaker carossover,tone shaping setups, CLS tranfourmers,panel work....an he new all the inter workings of there panels mylar setups...the way thay did-do there mylar is medlize...(but done diff)...to keep the mylar as clear as thay can.....so we can see though there panels....for looks, only aesthetic!
Over the years I have seen there panels change....I just saw a pr of ML that were glued all the way around the panels...top, sides an bottem...before this was only done to the CLS......most of there older panels....were only glued togather at the top an bottem
"Work in last 20 years was done before" ....ML has done a lot expamintashion..........your are right, most of there work like all esl info has been done befor....I gess the word(Lot).... make what you well out of that!
WrineX.....you are working on putting some type coating on mylar..it dose not look like it working any better than the Lyicron....But why do you care, what ML dose...there mylar cost more not eazy to get, if at all ....I say try to...get some older ML speaker an open them up an see how there made....I only paid $2-300 for a pr of old none working CLSs
an there 12"X46" speakers for as low as $40. a pr of none working speakers
Here are just two, of the pr of speaker I have rework...I took these pic as thay play today, now....Thay play as good are better then new...other owners of there new spearks have told me.
Now for what I see of the work you have done...I feel you could do as good if not better re-working ML....than I ever have...
keep up your good work...
Attachments
Deltastar
I have had at my home only the older Sound labs....deas sound...sucket!
But I have done tube amp work for a guy that has the SL M1...
I sold him a pr of Acoustat 2+2s...that he like a lot...
His sound lab sound vary good....but I had to put the new up greaded tranfourmer...in the M1s...to get the better sound....an he has a $50k in amps an other Audio running them....
His 2+2s are running on about $5k of tube amps an pramps....an he play them more of the time ...why...this is what he states...it more fun...plays louder...an never sounds strained like the SL do when pushed
But with your big room,i cant say how any thing would sound....it could be the best I would have ever Heard.....or Not!
But as you know...how it sounds to you....is all that matters
I have had at my home only the older Sound labs....deas sound...sucket!
But I have done tube amp work for a guy that has the SL M1...
I sold him a pr of Acoustat 2+2s...that he like a lot...
His sound lab sound vary good....but I had to put the new up greaded tranfourmer...in the M1s...to get the better sound....an he has a $50k in amps an other Audio running them....
His 2+2s are running on about $5k of tube amps an pramps....an he play them more of the time ...why...this is what he states...it more fun...plays louder...an never sounds strained like the SL do when pushed
But with your big room,i cant say how any thing would sound....it could be the best I would have ever Heard.....or Not!
But as you know...how it sounds to you....is all that matters
I have a question for you fellow Quad ESL freaks.
If. If. If you were able to make a coating in any resistivity you wanted what value would the perfect resistance for the ESL 63 and for the ESL 57 be.
Please no answers like "I guess it would be X or Y" but who can give me fundamental information with calculations or other substantiation why the resistance should have an X value for the ESL 63 ad Y for the ES 57.
Looking forward for your information.
If. If. If you were able to make a coating in any resistivity you wanted what value would the perfect resistance for the ESL 63 and for the ESL 57 be.
Please no answers like "I guess it would be X or Y" but who can give me fundamental information with calculations or other substantiation why the resistance should have an X value for the ESL 63 ad Y for the ES 57.
Looking forward for your information.
You want the charge to be largely stationary during the slowest (IE lowest frequency) you want to reproduce. or the displacement will not be linear because the charge will migrate around and the force on the diaphragm will not be uniform. But completely stationary implies infinite resistance
So if you want to try to reproduce 20hz with a panel (I wouldn't), then the period you need to worry about is 50mS. Now you need to determine how much charge movement is "too much". Let's say you don't want more than 5% movement.
If we assume that the charge migration is an exponential decay function (that assumption may or may not be OK), then it's governed by the following equation:
V(t) = Vo * e ^ (-t/RC)
You need to do some massaging to get it in terms of surface resistivity, and charge instead of capacitance though.
Now with modern quads, the panel is operating in a constant charge mode where the power supply is de-coupled from the panel (through the high value resistor and also a neon bulb), so this charge migration is the only issue in determining appropriate surface resistivity. But the original Quad ESL's are a pretty crappy design where there is no isolation between the power supply and the panels, so the coating also has to be high resistance to keep the panels operating in constant charge mode.
So wout31, it's a design calculation that is made. I'm pretty sure it's in one of Walker's wireless world articles, but it's been a long time since I read them.
Sheldon
quadesl.com
So if you want to try to reproduce 20hz with a panel (I wouldn't), then the period you need to worry about is 50mS. Now you need to determine how much charge movement is "too much". Let's say you don't want more than 5% movement.
If we assume that the charge migration is an exponential decay function (that assumption may or may not be OK), then it's governed by the following equation:
V(t) = Vo * e ^ (-t/RC)
You need to do some massaging to get it in terms of surface resistivity, and charge instead of capacitance though.
Now with modern quads, the panel is operating in a constant charge mode where the power supply is de-coupled from the panel (through the high value resistor and also a neon bulb), so this charge migration is the only issue in determining appropriate surface resistivity. But the original Quad ESL's are a pretty crappy design where there is no isolation between the power supply and the panels, so the coating also has to be high resistance to keep the panels operating in constant charge mode.
So wout31, it's a design calculation that is made. I'm pretty sure it's in one of Walker's wireless world articles, but it's been a long time since I read them.
Sheldon
quadesl.com
State of the Diaphragm Coating Art - 2018?
Hi All,
I have been reading into this thread in a somewhat unusual fashion, i.e. from the beginning and from the end - and it seems to me that the main challenges in considering a suitable coating remain the same ... Thus, the challenges still seem to be:
1. How to ensure good adhesion to the mylar incl. proper preparation of the mylar.
2. The coating must be lightweight so as to not add to the weight of the membrane.
3. The coating must spread evenly so as to not cause "islands" of different charges.
4. The coating must be high resistance so as to ensure low distortion. According to this thread (e.g. #17, 19 & 29):
Asymmetric construction induced distortion in electrostatic speakers
in the range of 1E11 or 1E12.
5. The coating optimally should be able to carry a high charge while still having high resistance.
6. It should be long-lasting and be quite unaffected by humidity & temperature changes.
7. It preferably should not cost a fortune ...
8. It should be available/accessible.
Well, quite a range of specifications I would say - and in so saying, I likely may not even know about some additional specifications that should be added ...
Some years ago Calvin kindly supplied me with the recipe for the "glue coating", and I notice that Licron coating, MJDikstra's HTEC coating, and ER Audio's coatings seem to be popular and/or more recent additions to the range of potential coatings ...
However, with the reservation that I have not found any information about ER Audio's coating wrt thickness & resistance, it seems to me that none of these coatings achieve a resistance of 1E11 let alone 1E12 while still being low weight (e.g. comparable to less than 1 um mylar) ... Or am I missing something here?
In any case it has made me curious as to what is really considered the 2018 "state of the art" of diaphragm coating - that is also just reasonably DIY friendly ... ?
... Hoping I am not bringing up a too worn subject ...
Cheers,
Jesper
Hi All,
I have been reading into this thread in a somewhat unusual fashion, i.e. from the beginning and from the end - and it seems to me that the main challenges in considering a suitable coating remain the same ... Thus, the challenges still seem to be:
1. How to ensure good adhesion to the mylar incl. proper preparation of the mylar.
2. The coating must be lightweight so as to not add to the weight of the membrane.
3. The coating must spread evenly so as to not cause "islands" of different charges.
4. The coating must be high resistance so as to ensure low distortion. According to this thread (e.g. #17, 19 & 29):
Asymmetric construction induced distortion in electrostatic speakers
in the range of 1E11 or 1E12.
5. The coating optimally should be able to carry a high charge while still having high resistance.
6. It should be long-lasting and be quite unaffected by humidity & temperature changes.
7. It preferably should not cost a fortune ...
8. It should be available/accessible.
Well, quite a range of specifications I would say - and in so saying, I likely may not even know about some additional specifications that should be added ...
Some years ago Calvin kindly supplied me with the recipe for the "glue coating", and I notice that Licron coating, MJDikstra's HTEC coating, and ER Audio's coatings seem to be popular and/or more recent additions to the range of potential coatings ...
However, with the reservation that I have not found any information about ER Audio's coating wrt thickness & resistance, it seems to me that none of these coatings achieve a resistance of 1E11 let alone 1E12 while still being low weight (e.g. comparable to less than 1 um mylar) ... Or am I missing something here?
In any case it has made me curious as to what is really considered the 2018 "state of the art" of diaphragm coating - that is also just reasonably DIY friendly ... ?
... Hoping I am not bringing up a too worn subject
...Cheers,
Jesper
Hi All,
I have been reading into this thread in a somewhat unusual fashion, i.e. from the beginning and from the end - and it seems to me that the main challenges in considering a suitable coating remain the same ... Thus, the challenges still seem to be:
1. How to ensure good adhesion to the mylar incl. proper preparation of the mylar.
2. The coating must be lightweight so as to not add to the weight of the membrane.
3. The coating must spread evenly so as to not cause "islands" of different charges.
4. The coating must be high resistance so as to ensure low distortion. According to this thread (e.g. #17, 19 & 29):
Asymmetric construction induced distortion in electrostatic speakers
in the range of 1E11 or 1E12.
5. The coating optimally should be able to carry a high charge while still having high resistance.
6. It should be long-lasting and be quite unaffected by humidity & temperature changes.
7. It preferably should not cost a fortune ...
8. It should be available/accessible.
Well, quite a range of specifications I would say - and in so saying, I likely may not even know about some additional specifications that should be added ...
Some years ago Calvin kindly supplied me with the recipe for the "glue coating", and I notice that Licron coating, MJDikstra's HTEC coating, and ER Audio's coatings seem to be popular and/or more recent additions to the range of potential coatings ...
However, with the reservation that I have not found any information about ER Audio's coating wrt thickness & resistance, it seems to me that none of these coatings achieve a resistance of 1E11 let alone 1E12 while still being low weight (e.g. comparable to less than 1 um mylar) ... Or am I missing something here?
In any case it has made me curious as to what is really considered the 2018 "state of the art" of diaphragm coating - that is also just reasonably DIY friendly ... ?
... Hoping I am not bringing up a too worn subject
Cheers,
Jesper
I would love to find a DIY coating that meets all the criteria you stated. From all reports, Calvin’s coating fits the bill pretty well except that I’ve been unable to find that glue in the US. The ER Audio coating, aside from being proprietary (not really DIY if we don’t know how to make it), the ER Audio coating looks rather cloudy (translucent at best).
Licron Crystal (what I use) is good stuff but very expensive, E7-E9 resistance isn't bad but not optimal, and isn't available everywhere.
The easiest & cheapest DIY coating I know of is any dishwashing liquid containing sodium laurel sulfate (practically every brand has it). I’ve tried it on a temporary test basis and it works perfectly but I opted not to use it because it attracts dust and I can’t bond spacers over it (nothing sticks to it). I’ve read that it lasts indefinitely and it's resistance is on the money but I can’t confirm that.
Really; no one is going to get rich selling a proprietary DIY coating, and if ever come up with a formula that meets all the criteria you stated, I will gladly post it on this forum that’s done so much for me.
Hi MJ & CharlieM,
& thank you both for your feedbacks ...
Could be interesting ... Can you say what the price level is? Do I just send you a PM if I would like some - or maybe you have a webpage from where I can order it?
Hmmm ... also interesting. I actually have some of this TESA glue (courtesy Calvin's recommendation) - this one exactly:
tesa ecoLogo Vielzweckkleber, in Kunststoff-Flasche, 50 g | eBay
so maybe I should start out here (BTW if you like I can buy a bottle for you and send it to you, just send me a PM) ...
@MJ Dijkstra: Can you just briefly say (or point me to a link) where possible advantages of the HTEC coating vs. the TESA glue is described? I would be most interested in reading about this ...
Cheers & thanks again both of you
Jesper
& thank you both for your feedbacks ...
Could be interesting ... Can you say what the price level is? Do I just send you a PM if I would like some - or maybe you have a webpage from where I can order it?
Hmmm ... also interesting. I actually have some of this TESA glue (courtesy Calvin's recommendation) - this one exactly:
tesa ecoLogo Vielzweckkleber, in Kunststoff-Flasche, 50 g | eBay
so maybe I should start out here (BTW if you like I can buy a bottle for you and send it to you, just send me a PM) ...
@MJ Dijkstra: Can you just briefly say (or point me to a link) where possible advantages of the HTEC coating vs. the TESA glue is described? I would be most interested in reading about this ...
Cheers & thanks again both of you
Jesper
Coating
Hi Jesper,
Your post made me ask myself a lot of questions. Just to mention a few:
1. What ESL are you referring to for the coating? A home made one, or an existing brand? If the latter, what make and model|?
2. DIY project? Most people think they can buy a DIY "kit" and put everything together in a weekend and than get an "out of this world" result.
What is your definition of DIY in this matter? A weeks work or a few years of research and effort?
Your number 5. How can you measure the charge without buying very expensive equipment? Charge is measured in Coulomb as far as I can find out.
What is a "high" charge in numbers? Would be very interesting to hear how this works. Anyone?
I think your number 7 and 8 are impossible.
To develop a coating can be very expensive. To make it reproducible and distributable is (almost) impossible.
If you develop a coating how can you be sure the person applying it is following all the necessary rules?
The right tools, the right spray patern, the right pressure, the rigth spray image. No instructions can describe that to stay within the margins.
What about solvents and hazardous ingredients in the coating? There must be some to make it durable and sticky.
Tried water based, but it dries out and just jumps off the mylar as a cloud of dust.
I found Licron Crystal unusable in my project, the Quad ESL-63.
Jos Wouters
Hi Jesper,
Your post made me ask myself a lot of questions. Just to mention a few:
1. What ESL are you referring to for the coating? A home made one, or an existing brand? If the latter, what make and model|?
2. DIY project? Most people think they can buy a DIY "kit" and put everything together in a weekend and than get an "out of this world" result.
What is your definition of DIY in this matter? A weeks work or a few years of research and effort?
Your number 5. How can you measure the charge without buying very expensive equipment? Charge is measured in Coulomb as far as I can find out.
What is a "high" charge in numbers? Would be very interesting to hear how this works. Anyone?
I think your number 7 and 8 are impossible.
To develop a coating can be very expensive. To make it reproducible and distributable is (almost) impossible.
If you develop a coating how can you be sure the person applying it is following all the necessary rules?
The right tools, the right spray patern, the right pressure, the rigth spray image. No instructions can describe that to stay within the margins.
What about solvents and hazardous ingredients in the coating? There must be some to make it durable and sticky.
Tried water based, but it dries out and just jumps off the mylar as a cloud of dust.
I found Licron Crystal unusable in my project, the Quad ESL-63.
Jos Wouters
Hi Jos ... some comments on your questions:
It would be a home made one.
Well, I can't really answer this in a simple way ... It depends on what I am doing but I reckon that over time I have come to be more thorough before I make something - reading & considering at first.
I don't know - I was thinking theoretically here as I admittedly am not a "physics" chemist.
Have you tried Calvin's glue formula? Although I have not yet tried it given what others have said about it I reckon that it would work ... ?? But maybe your membrane is made from a different material ... (?)
Cheers,
Jesper
It would be a home made one.
Well, I can't really answer this in a simple way ... It depends on what I am doing but I reckon that over time I have come to be more thorough before I make something - reading & considering at first.
I don't know - I was thinking theoretically here as I admittedly am not a "physics" chemist.
Have you tried Calvin's glue formula? Although I have not yet tried it given what others have said about it I reckon that it would work ... ?? But maybe your membrane is made from a different material ... (?)
Cheers,
Jesper