Got my own licron can today and tested it on a sample mylar piece. The sponge applied layer is mighty thin, and dries up in couple of minutes. Should I put on two (or even three) such cotas, wait 6-12 hours between them so the last layer dries completely, what do you think? I don't have equipment to measure the surface resistance (multimeter goes to 50meg). How did you apply it Wrinex? I first sprayed the stuff into a small (25ml) container bottle from where I apply it to the sponge and then wipe on.
One is usually good as long as it is wetted well.
Although I sometimes use two just to be sure as it is so thin.
I apply it directly to to the diagphram and swab it around.
I orginally used a paper towel wetted with it to swab it with.
I have only got to use it a few times on my mini panels.
Charlie and a few others say that a sponge brush works great.
I will use that method next time as I think that it will be less of a waste of material than using a paper towel.
I haven't had any issues with the Crystal formula in the the last two years since that it has been applied.
Or with the licron regular as well for the last 9 years since when It first came out when I discovered it.
My only issue is burning holes in the mylar !!! He,he,he,he!!!!
I have used my panels within an hour or less after applying the coating.
As long as it has cured or dried it is good to go!
jer
Although I sometimes use two just to be sure as it is so thin.
I apply it directly to to the diagphram and swab it around.
I orginally used a paper towel wetted with it to swab it with.
I have only got to use it a few times on my mini panels.
Charlie and a few others say that a sponge brush works great.
I will use that method next time as I think that it will be less of a waste of material than using a paper towel.
I haven't had any issues with the Crystal formula in the the last two years since that it has been applied.
Or with the licron regular as well for the last 9 years since when It first came out when I discovered it.
My only issue is burning holes in the mylar !!! He,he,he,he!!!!
I have used my panels within an hour or less after applying the coating.
As long as it has cured or dried it is good to go!
jer
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I spray coated some diaphragms once where I didn’t have quite enough Licron and/or pressure left in the aerosol can to completely cover the diaphragms--- it was a panic situation but I happened to have a foam paint brush handy and I used that to spread the coating over the diaphragms. It worked fine but brushing the coating does result in
what I would describe as “prismatic streaks” in the coating; whereas, a nice wet spray coat will produce a clear, streak free coating. I can say that one wet coat works great but I can’t say how little you could get by with. Since the coating is so thin anyway, there’s not much downside, mass-wise, to using a wet coat that I know will work fine versus a thinner wiped on coating, which may or may not work as well.
what I would describe as “prismatic streaks” in the coating; whereas, a nice wet spray coat will produce a clear, streak free coating. I can say that one wet coat works great but I can’t say how little you could get by with. Since the coating is so thin anyway, there’s not much downside, mass-wise, to using a wet coat that I know will work fine versus a thinner wiped on coating, which may or may not work as well.
Thanks for the responses.
I think I will coat them twice. I agree with the little streaks when applied with a sponge.
Spraying the stuff is risky with my setup, and I also want to leave 1cm gap around spacers so the panel ticks the least with high voltages. Also some dirt in the spacers won't cause leaks this way. The most usual places I get ticking are at the spacers if they get in contact with the HV. I could use a transparent tape as a liner for the spacers and then take it off after spraying the coatin though. But the fear of leaks, even with good lining and protection, might ultimately keep me from spraying.
I think I will coat them twice. I agree with the little streaks when applied with a sponge.
Spraying the stuff is risky with my setup, and I also want to leave 1cm gap around spacers so the panel ticks the least with high voltages. Also some dirt in the spacers won't cause leaks this way. The most usual places I get ticking are at the spacers if they get in contact with the HV. I could use a transparent tape as a liner for the spacers and then take it off after spraying the coatin though. But the fear of leaks, even with good lining and protection, might ultimately keep me from spraying.
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Blue painters tape is great stuff!
When I didn't have any I would spray the edge of some sheets of copy paper with some 3M sticky stuff and mask the whole perimeter with it.
That way it was large enough to catch any over spray that might get where it is not wanted.
It didn't leave any residue at all when I peeled it off.
The 3M sticky stuff is so terrible anymore that I could only use it once and I rarely get a second use out of my homemade masking's.
jer
When I didn't have any I would spray the edge of some sheets of copy paper with some 3M sticky stuff and mask the whole perimeter with it.
That way it was large enough to catch any over spray that might get where it is not wanted.
It didn't leave any residue at all when I peeled it off.
The 3M sticky stuff is so terrible anymore that I could only use it once and I rarely get a second use out of my homemade masking's.
jer
Double coating with a sponge made the membrane quite smoky and it's impossible to get homogenous transparency. The spacer surrounds are uncoated on purpose. I still think it might not be that bad from under the stators, as long as there is no window at the backside (and there won't be due to UV).
I have not tested the coating yet, I hope the sensitivity is fffing great and THD still very low to compensate the loss in aesthetics.
I have not tested the coating yet, I hope the sensitivity is fffing great and THD still very low to compensate the loss in aesthetics.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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I've never seen Licron crystal look like that.
Was pretty common for the original Licron formula 1755.
Any idea what the humidity was when you applied the coating?
Hi Steve, around 50% says my humidity meter. It was way more transparent after the first (sponge) layer, the second made it much more smoky. I should have tried it after the first coat and then apply more if it was not enough, but too late now.'
I'm just about to start putting the front stataor on...
I'm just about to start putting the front stataor on...
I have to do some more testing tomorrow, but it seems that I got 5-7dB gain in efficiency. The initial charging blinks are lightning fast and the blinking rate settles very fast compared to before. The smokiness of the coating is not an issue, at least now in the evening light levels.
I hope it sounds as good as the previous coat.
I hope it sounds as good as the previous coat.
Actually it looks about right,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/109789-esl-diaphragm-coating-7.html#post2142822
It is more noticeable do to the refraction of the light.
I have had better aesthetic results as well by just spraying on single coat but it is hardly noticeable once the diagphram is hidden behind the stator.
Looks Great Legis !!
jer
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/109789-esl-diaphragm-coating-7.html#post2142822
It is more noticeable do to the refraction of the light.
I have had better aesthetic results as well by just spraying on single coat but it is hardly noticeable once the diagphram is hidden behind the stator.
Looks Great Legis !!
jer
I've spray-coated three sets of panels with Licron Crystal. The first set (my friend Mavric's panels) turned out very clear. The set that I attempted to spray but ran low and had to smooth out with a foam brush turned out streaky. The third set (my current panels) were sprayed on a humid day and were a bit cloudy (not streaky) but still fairly clear.
BTW, Legis, your panels look very well made and I'm sure the streaking will have no adverse affect at all on their sound-- which I predict will be fabulous.
BTW, Legis, your panels look very well made and I'm sure the streaking will have no adverse affect at all on their sound-- which I predict will be fabulous.
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I managed to membrane the other speaker with 3,5µm Dupont mylar that I got a sample. The membrane is only 1cm wider than the radiating area, which makes it little difficult and this is the reason I did not try it before as I though it cannot be done.
Does thinner Dupont sound much better than 6µm Hostaphan? What kind of sensitivity increase one can expect at 20kHz? If the membrane has high enough tension to withstand 4,7kV bias withous sucking into the back stator I will do also the other panel with 3,5µm. I could not apply just as high tension, little lower, but I hope it's enough.
I will coat it tomorrow with licron crystal, this time with only one generous layer applied with sponge, trying to minimize the treaks and cloudyness that double coating does.
Does thinner Dupont sound much better than 6µm Hostaphan? What kind of sensitivity increase one can expect at 20kHz? If the membrane has high enough tension to withstand 4,7kV bias withous sucking into the back stator I will do also the other panel with 3,5µm. I could not apply just as high tension, little lower, but I hope it's enough.
I will coat it tomorrow with licron crystal, this time with only one generous layer applied with sponge, trying to minimize the treaks and cloudyness that double coating does.
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I have only used .25 mil(6um) and thicker stuff so far and I can say I do like the thinner stuff better.
Although the difference could only really be noticed in a side by side A/B comparison.
I do have some 3" wide 2.5um (.1 mil) and 1.5 um (.06 mil) but I haven't really tried it yet.
I did use the 1.5um stuff in my micro ESL made out of credit cards but it was before I had the Crystal formula and before I had the transformer issues solved.
So, I didn't get to fully test it before I tore it apart for some pictures.
But what I did get out of it on a 500v bias was such a natural sound that I just couldn't believe my ears.
In fact I thought that there was little highs and I wrote it off thinking that the holes where just to small and being restrictive.
As it turned out it was the sample of music that I was listening to off of YouTube.
When I had found the right music I was just blown away.
I can imagine that it was hard to get a good tension with such a large piece as it is quite stretchy.
I had the same issues using my 6um stuff on only an 8" wide span but I did finally get it to work.
I think what Charlie said about the humidity makes a lot of sense as my very first samples of crystal are made at the end of winter time and were very clear, and, later samples were made toward the end of spring and more into summertime and I too had noticed that they where a bit more cloudy than the very first sample I had made.
Nevertheless the coating seems to be very consistent and reliable even after a few years as I had reported.
Here are two shots that I just took of both formulas and you can see the difference.
One is with the flash on and the other is without.
Sorry the one without flash got slightly blurred as the battery in my camera was getting low.
jer
Although the difference could only really be noticed in a side by side A/B comparison.
I do have some 3" wide 2.5um (.1 mil) and 1.5 um (.06 mil) but I haven't really tried it yet.
I did use the 1.5um stuff in my micro ESL made out of credit cards but it was before I had the Crystal formula and before I had the transformer issues solved.
So, I didn't get to fully test it before I tore it apart for some pictures.
But what I did get out of it on a 500v bias was such a natural sound that I just couldn't believe my ears.
In fact I thought that there was little highs and I wrote it off thinking that the holes where just to small and being restrictive.
As it turned out it was the sample of music that I was listening to off of YouTube.
When I had found the right music I was just blown away.
I can imagine that it was hard to get a good tension with such a large piece as it is quite stretchy.
I had the same issues using my 6um stuff on only an 8" wide span but I did finally get it to work.
I think what Charlie said about the humidity makes a lot of sense as my very first samples of crystal are made at the end of winter time and were very clear, and, later samples were made toward the end of spring and more into summertime and I too had noticed that they where a bit more cloudy than the very first sample I had made.
Nevertheless the coating seems to be very consistent and reliable even after a few years as I had reported.
Here are two shots that I just took of both formulas and you can see the difference.
One is with the flash on and the other is without.
Sorry the one without flash got slightly blurred as the battery in my camera was getting low.
jer
Attachments
Hi Jer,
I would also lean to think that lighter stuff sounds better. The difference in SQ between 12µm and 6µm was devastating, but there was also difference in the coating (from aluminum coated to high res coating, no wonder why it sounded better).
The 6µm gave much more highs (maybe 7dB more at 20khz) than the 12µm. I would think that 6µm membrane also has some (maybe not much) mass related attenuation at 20kHz, so 3,5µm might give more highs (and also less attenuation in the ultra freqs). I hope I'm wiser tomorrow. I would aslo presume intuitively that the micro resolution is better.
Licron crystal is quite clear winner in aesthetics from those two panels.
Regards,
Legis
I would also lean to think that lighter stuff sounds better. The difference in SQ between 12µm and 6µm was devastating, but there was also difference in the coating (from aluminum coated to high res coating, no wonder why it sounded better).
The 6µm gave much more highs (maybe 7dB more at 20khz) than the 12µm. I would think that 6µm membrane also has some (maybe not much) mass related attenuation at 20kHz, so 3,5µm might give more highs (and also less attenuation in the ultra freqs). I hope I'm wiser tomorrow. I would aslo presume intuitively that the micro resolution is better.
Licron crystal is quite clear winner in aesthetics from those two panels
.Regards,
Legis
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Yes, I detected about some loss of highs as well but that was before I had any measuring equipment.
On the test of those to diagphrams,the regular formula was quite a bit thicker and I had to boost the highs about 2db or so in order for it to sound the same as the left one.
But even with the lesser mass the left one (crystal) had I slightly more finesse to its sound than the heavier (and thicker) regular formula.
When I first started them up after seven years of being soiled they still worked.
Then I cleaned them and that made them sound so much better.
Then I redid one of them with the Crystal and I was like OMG what a difference!
It gave a whole new meaning to the name Crystal!
It is amazing how much of an effect that little bit of difference of mass can make !!!
I can just imagine how your big panels are going to sound with that thin stuff.
Can't wait to hear your next report about your results.
I'm thinking of when I do rebuild my 8"x22" panels to add a tweeter panel with some of the thin stuff that I have and use a pair of my 8" subs in a dipole configuration for my Nearfield system in front of my mixer.
As it won't be designed to do loud, Just only clean for mix downs.
jer
On the test of those to diagphrams,the regular formula was quite a bit thicker and I had to boost the highs about 2db or so in order for it to sound the same as the left one.
But even with the lesser mass the left one (crystal) had I slightly more finesse to its sound than the heavier (and thicker) regular formula.
When I first started them up after seven years of being soiled they still worked.
Then I cleaned them and that made them sound so much better.
Then I redid one of them with the Crystal and I was like OMG what a difference!
It gave a whole new meaning to the name Crystal!
It is amazing how much of an effect that little bit of difference of mass can make !!!
I can just imagine how your big panels are going to sound with that thin stuff.
Can't wait to hear your next report about your results.
I'm thinking of when I do rebuild my 8"x22" panels to add a tweeter panel with some of the thin stuff that I have and use a pair of my 8" subs in a dipole configuration for my Nearfield system in front of my mixer.
As it won't be designed to do loud, Just only clean for mix downs.
jer
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