alexberg
I recall somewhere in this thread mentionings om a limit on how low the resistance of graphite coating can be, and it seems that you're right, if the carbon, or, more generally, particle-based conductor, is too diluted, the conducting chain is broken and there's no current at all. Pva is conductive by itself and so works well with graphite/ink.
While molecules of antistatic coating are, of course, also particles, they are small enought so that we can assume that conductivity just simply lowers with dilution, and does not suddenly gets 'turned off'.
So, well, we return back to phil47's second recipe - acrylic varnish for binding and antistatic liquid for conduction. Some liquids may bind well by themselves, but most wouldn't.
I recall somewhere in this thread mentionings om a limit on how low the resistance of graphite coating can be, and it seems that you're right, if the carbon, or, more generally, particle-based conductor, is too diluted, the conducting chain is broken and there's no current at all. Pva is conductive by itself and so works well with graphite/ink.
While molecules of antistatic coating are, of course, also particles, they are small enought so that we can assume that conductivity just simply lowers with dilution, and does not suddenly gets 'turned off'.
So, well, we return back to phil47's second recipe - acrylic varnish for binding and antistatic liquid for conduction. Some liquids may bind well by themselves, but most wouldn't.
To Nevod
Please don't waste your time as I did, buyign all kind of cr...p.
Even emulsion type acrylic containing polymer particles i.e. porous by definition and datasheet, blocks conductivity nicely.
The coating I choose looks like aussie staff and costs about the same or cheaper, a lot cheaper if you buy a gallon
Can be procured even in RF and readily available in EU/US.
Comes in aerosol cans as well as plain plastic bottles.
Alex
Please don't waste your time as I did, buyign all kind of cr...p.
Even emulsion type acrylic containing polymer particles i.e. porous by definition and datasheet, blocks conductivity nicely.
The coating I choose looks like aussie staff and costs about the same or cheaper, a lot cheaper if you buy a gallon
Can be procured even in RF and readily available in EU/US.
Comes in aerosol cans as well as plain plastic bottles.
Alex
To Nevod
Please don't waste your time as I did, buyign all kind of cr...p.
Even emulsion type acrylic containing polymer particles i.e. porous by definition and datasheet, blocks conductivity nicely.
The coating I choose looks like aussie staff and costs about the same or cheaper, a lot cheaper if you buy a gallon
Can be procured even in RF and readily available in EU/US.
Comes in aerosol cans as well as plain plastic bottles.
Alex
You probably mentioned it somewhere already, but which coating are you refering to?
I beg your pardon for repeating myself.
It's easier to find than one may think... The answer was right under my nose.
Even so, I have found approach taken by Martin-Jan quite appropriate.
Moreover, neither I have a proof for coating durability as holland master has nor I am interested in making quick buck.
Yours truly,
Alex
P.S. Please try to google "Static control producs"
It is similar, by TDS, to the floor coatings, and the latter have been mentioned already as well.
P.P.S. I would love to share it for the shipping cost but it is just unreal
To anyone who may know about this a question.
If one was able to accurately control the density of a given coating across a diaphragm would it be better to have heavier on the outer perimeter and graduated to less as you get to the center or would the opposite be true? IOW would there be a charge migration control or other advantage in performance if the coating could be gradated in such a way?
If one was able to accurately control the density of a given coating across a diaphragm would it be better to have heavier on the outer perimeter and graduated to less as you get to the center or would the opposite be true? IOW would there be a charge migration control or other advantage in performance if the coating could be gradated in such a way?
Thanks MJ.
And yes I understand from this and many threads about the surface resistance. What I meant to say is that other threads talk about charge migration and it also occurred to me that maybe it might be an advantage to manipulate the charge with coating density differences. So if a particularly good coating with good surface resistance is used is it a factor when variations in coating thickness or density is done? Does more charge go to more dense areas of coating? What if the coating could be applied as a pattern such as printed on or tooled on in such a way as to vary the thickness? Or is it simply a matter of putting on as thin of a working coat as possible? I don't think the variations I'm considering would effectively change the mass of the diaphragm. I'm talking about micro adjustments here in a machine applied process.
And yes I understand from this and many threads about the surface resistance. What I meant to say is that other threads talk about charge migration and it also occurred to me that maybe it might be an advantage to manipulate the charge with coating density differences. So if a particularly good coating with good surface resistance is used is it a factor when variations in coating thickness or density is done? Does more charge go to more dense areas of coating? What if the coating could be applied as a pattern such as printed on or tooled on in such a way as to vary the thickness? Or is it simply a matter of putting on as thin of a working coat as possible? I don't think the variations I'm considering would effectively change the mass of the diaphragm. I'm talking about micro adjustments here in a machine applied process.
The magic coating name
Below is the list of some static dissipative coatings producers.
Common component is metal crosslink acrylic polymer.
Another thing to look for is the color - most acrylic are somewhat grey-blue-green.
The latter probably is due to polyanilin, also MSDS do not corfirm/deny it.
STATICWORX
DESCO
TECHSPRAY
ESDPRODUCS
STATICIDE
PERMA
JULIEINDUSTRIES
LEGGESYSTEMS
Choose the one on avail or easiest to find and try it.
There were other companies already mentioned in this thread as well.
Products' primary use is floor coating where durabilty and scratch
resistance is a must, some intentionally designed for plastics and some
can stay on surface inert ones like polypropylene.
Another set of coatings are "ultra-high-end" natotube based - really price prohibitive,
you may see for your self, if you'd like.
With the best regards,
Alex
To arend-jan: I have talked (over the phone) to quite a few applications engineers of the companies above.
Besides the assurance that their product is the best one may find, they do confirm that it would not flake out.
The one I have managed to obtain can not be separated from PET film by contact adhesive.
This is also true for vynil floor coatings with "anti-static effect" from hardware stores.
Almost forgot - there is a company with NANO polyanilin coating - falls into NANO price range
Below is the list of some static dissipative coatings producers.
Common component is metal crosslink acrylic polymer.
Another thing to look for is the color - most acrylic are somewhat grey-blue-green.
The latter probably is due to polyanilin, also MSDS do not corfirm/deny it.
STATICWORX
DESCO
TECHSPRAY
ESDPRODUCS
STATICIDE
PERMA
JULIEINDUSTRIES
LEGGESYSTEMS
Choose the one on avail or easiest to find and try it.
There were other companies already mentioned in this thread as well.
Products' primary use is floor coating where durabilty and scratch
resistance is a must, some intentionally designed for plastics and some
can stay on surface inert ones like polypropylene.
Another set of coatings are "ultra-high-end" natotube based - really price prohibitive,
you may see for your self, if you'd like.
With the best regards,
Alex
To arend-jan: I have talked (over the phone) to quite a few applications engineers of the companies above.
Besides the assurance that their product is the best one may find, they do confirm that it would not flake out.
The one I have managed to obtain can not be separated from PET film by contact adhesive.
This is also true for vynil floor coatings with "anti-static effect" from hardware stores.
Almost forgot - there is a company with NANO polyanilin coating - falls into NANO
price range
More info on the Techspray:
This past week I built another pair of stat panels using the Licron Crystal areosol spray coating from Techspray. Including shipping, this stuff is $50 a can and I had already used most of it on Mavric's panels and some other panels I had built earlier. Anyway, I didn't have enough left to get a full wet coat on these panels. (As I mentioned in an earlier post, it takes quite a wet application to get a continuous smooth coating, which looks very thick initially but dries fairly thin-- about 2 microns once all the solvents flash off). For these panels, I sprayed a small amount of the Licron on a 2" wide foam brush, then sprayed the remainder of then can on the panels and used the pre-wetted brush to smooth out the coating. I got a fair amount on the panels, just not enough to form a continuous wet coating, but the brush did a beautiful job of smoothing out the coating and the resulting panels sound wonderful.
This past week I built another pair of stat panels using the Licron Crystal areosol spray coating from Techspray. Including shipping, this stuff is $50 a can and I had already used most of it on Mavric's panels and some other panels I had built earlier. Anyway, I didn't have enough left to get a full wet coat on these panels. (As I mentioned in an earlier post, it takes quite a wet application to get a continuous smooth coating, which looks very thick initially but dries fairly thin-- about 2 microns once all the solvents flash off). For these panels, I sprayed a small amount of the Licron on a 2" wide foam brush, then sprayed the remainder of then can on the panels and used the pre-wetted brush to smooth out the coating. I got a fair amount on the panels, just not enough to form a continuous wet coating, but the brush did a beautiful job of smoothing out the coating and the resulting panels sound wonderful.
NANO staff
Project float 703 is yet another reference
QUOTE
It used to have much more info with formulations, etc.
U, PP, PC, PMMA, PET, PA, PVC
Yet another one, very friendly people
H.C. Starck - Applications=
Quote from Clevios, pr 100ml: Euro 420/kg / 10 = 42 + 195 = Euro 237 (for 0,1 kg)
195 is small batch charge
Alex
Project float 703 is yet another reference
QUOTE
Marc Schroeyers provided the following information:
CONDUCTIVE COATING FOR PLASTIC FILM: at the following website you will find information on ‘ORMECON LACQUER’ 901210/17 or 900256: Welcome to Ormecon International!
These products enable you to apply a lasting, inert, conductive coating on plastic film; the surface resistance (depending on layer thickness) can be varied between 10exp3 to 10exp12 ohm-square.
SKIPPED
A drawback is the cost: I informed at Zipperling, they charge around 750USD for 0.75liter
END QUOTE
Enthone - A High Performance Specialty Chemical CompanyCONDUCTIVE COATING FOR PLASTIC FILM: at the following website you will find information on ‘ORMECON LACQUER’ 901210/17 or 900256: Welcome to Ormecon International!
These products enable you to apply a lasting, inert, conductive coating on plastic film; the surface resistance (depending on layer thickness) can be varied between 10exp3 to 10exp12 ohm-square.
SKIPPED
A drawback is the cost: I informed at Zipperling, they charge around 750USD for 0.75liter
END QUOTE
It used to have much more info with formulations, etc.
L5001e is xylene based coating, L5008W is water based
SubstratesU, PP, PC, PMMA, PET, PA, PVCYet another one, very friendly people
H.C. Starck - Applications=
Quote from Clevios, pr 100ml: Euro 420/kg / 10 = 42 + 195 = Euro 237 (for 0,1 kg)
195 is small batch charge
Alex
Hi,
AFAIK Ormecon has failed as a good ESL coating. Of course does everybody claim that their coating is the best...but as soon as You ask for a proof under the special conditions we face in an ESL, they typically have to pass.
I start wondering if Your post Alex are meant to confuse people???
What´s the use of citing numerous products of which some already have failed long time tests, of which some haven´t been tested at all, of which some are rather impossible to source, of which most cost alot more than the well proven DIY-glue formula or the EC-coating, of which most are not totally transparent? If they were any better, so fine, but some perform worse already from the datasheets.
jauu
Calvin
AFAIK Ormecon has failed as a good ESL coating. Of course does everybody claim that their coating is the best...but as soon as You ask for a proof under the special conditions we face in an ESL, they typically have to pass.
I start wondering if Your post Alex are meant to confuse people???
What´s the use of citing numerous products of which some already have failed long time tests, of which some haven´t been tested at all, of which some are rather impossible to source, of which most cost alot more than the well proven DIY-glue formula or the EC-coating, of which most are not totally transparent? If they were any better, so fine, but some perform worse already from the datasheets.
jauu
Calvin
Almost forgot - there is a company with NANO polyanilin coating - falls into NANO
Is that the one from Los Angeles?
It's actually trivial to make polyaniline nano. It can be done with some cheap, common chemicals on a workbench. Dispersion and bonding leads to the same problems everyone else has when they don't bother to surface treat their films.
Big problem with PANI is that the conductivity is too high in stable coatings and it has HUGE variation with humidity and environment.
I do not know which conductive substance is in the coating that seems working -
as I said, it looks like the australian - bluish grey.
Stays pretty well. When breathed upon restores resistivity within seconds.
"Nutty"/unpleasant smell. Metal cross-linked acrylic copolymer by msds.
Do not tolerate freezing, while liquid, which means that it's colloid or dispersion.
Alex
P.S. Shared some with another DIYer, unfortunately no report so far.
Doesn't sound useful, if you have to "breathe on it" to restore it's operation...
_-_-
Let me put it the other way. Even if an excessive moisture is introduced (exhalation has a lot of water) resistance recovers to the dry value pretty fast. So it does not accumulate water.
N.B. Pricewise it's the same as "PROVEN" Australian one. It was just easier to get. For me in particular...
ALEX
A typical novice question. If it has been discussed before, please kindly give me a link.
There are many projects on the inet, some say coating on one side, others say both sides of the membrane.
If the ESL behaves like a pair of capacitors in series, then carrying the electrostatic charges on one side must be enough ??
I mean the membrane is 6um of Polyester, which is negligible compared to 2mm of air.
Any opinions / experiences ?
Thanks in advance,
Patrick
There are many projects on the inet, some say coating on one side, others say both sides of the membrane.
If the ESL behaves like a pair of capacitors in series, then carrying the electrostatic charges on one side must be enough ??
I mean the membrane is 6um of Polyester, which is negligible compared to 2mm of air.
Any opinions / experiences ?
Thanks in advance,
Patrick
For most designs it would be difficult or impractical to coat the diaphragm on both sides; although it may be best to coat both sides as recommended by Walker/QUAD. All I can tell you that my ESL diaphragms are coated on one side only and they sound wonderful.
The confusement of covering both sides of the mylar is caused by some questionable marketing of elvamide. While this material behaves electrically equivalent to cheap materials like 'hobby-glue' , it was told to work entirely different ('triboelectric') and for this reason it should (according to salesmen) be put on both sides. While this might increase salesnumbers this theory simply can't hold and the actual reason had probably to do with the irregular deposition of the coating on the film which is a bad sign anyway.
To answer the question, I can't think of any (proven) reason why you should cover both sides. In contrast, there are good reasons to cover just one side, for example less added mass, ease of construction.
To answer the question, I can't think of any (proven) reason why you should cover both sides. In contrast, there are good reasons to cover just one side, for example less added mass, ease of construction.
MartinJan,
Totally agree.
Perhaps a not-too-neutral question, and still hope you will give a neutral answer.
Do you have first hand experience with Techspray Licron Crystal ?
How would you compare them to EC-Coating in terms of performance ?
What is the shelf-life of the EC-Coating ?
Thx,
Patrick
PS I am in Eindhoven on business regularly.
Totally agree.
Perhaps a not-too-neutral question, and still hope you will give a neutral answer.
Do you have first hand experience with Techspray Licron Crystal ?
How would you compare them to EC-Coating in terms of performance ?
What is the shelf-life of the EC-Coating ?
Thx,
Patrick
PS I am in Eindhoven on business regularly.