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Old 11th July 2018, 09:16 AM   #911
MJ Dijkstra is offline MJ Dijkstra  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazap View Post
Possibly the ideal membrane coating structure would look like:

I am in the process of making graphene and nanotubes but it is for battery research and not ESL. Large sheets of graphene look like your ideal picture. However with current technology we cant produce such large sheets. Neither is this required imho. In case of graphene resistance will be quite low as well.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:39 AM   #912
gentlevoice is offline gentlevoice  Denmark
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ESL Diaphragm coating
@kazap:

Quote:
Possibly the ideal membrane coating structure would look like:
Hmmm... thinking aloud here: a large conductive surface area (the spheres) with low conductivity between the spheres.

Even smaller spheres would lead to even lower intermolecular surface area contact between the spheres presumably until the point where molecular surface "topology" is so uneven and coarse that contact between the spheres no longer is "structured" and the spheres' may no longer be considered to be spheres with a reduction in relative surface area gain when going to even lower sphere radii ...

Assuming that the above is not too far off ... Might it somehow help in structuring the particles in a sensible way to e.g. apply an electric field while the coating dries (DC/AC) ... Or a magnetic field of some kind? Could it force the particles to orient in a desired way?

Again - thinking aloud here ...

Cheers,

Jesper
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:53 AM   #913
MJ Dijkstra is offline MJ Dijkstra  Netherlands
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Flat and small sheets of graphene do align upon an external magnetic field and it has been shown that this has some effect on the conductivity. I highly doubt that this will happen with sphere like structures. But hey, you never know until you try it.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:34 PM   #914
alexberg is offline alexberg
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Cool, molecular physics, organic chemistry, advanced manufacturing. What else are we going to investigate without any yeild?
Since bifurcation was resolved into sincere confusion, I would refer to yet another diyer who's posted yet another recipe with some detergent in it. Only time will tell if the coating is long lasting.
However if you not living in Alaska then air humidity will be high enough for such topical coatings to conduct.
P.S. I do not believe that ESL coating is at such high demand which requires "inventors" to keep it secret in order to make huge amount of green staff.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:56 PM   #915
wout31 is offline wout31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazap View Post
Possibly the ideal membrane coating structure would look like:
Thanks Kazap for this input. This could be an explanation of the weight being low in relation to the measured thickness. No pollution, no foaming, no compressing the coating with the thickness meter or other weird things, but a hemispherical surface. Never thought of that, but it might be thinking in the right direction. Thanks again.
- About bigger particles: Found a supplier and will definitely try that.
- About double sided coating: There is no way I can think of how to accomplish that with the construction of the Quad ESL-63. Easier to first try the aforementioned option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Dijkstra View Post
Large sheets of graphene look like your ideal picture. However with current technology we cant produce such large sheets.
Seeing the word graphite being replace with graphene all of a sudden is something I do not understand. Maybe over 20 years, but not now, not for me, not for my wallet, not for my knowledge level, not for my skills, not as a DIY project.

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Originally Posted by gentlevoice View Post
apply an electric field while the coating dries (DC/AC) ... Or a magnetic field of some kind? Could it force the particles to orient in a desired way?
Jesper, you're a creative thinker and I will note this one. Can't think of a way of how to make this work in the painting process as of yet, but hey it might be a good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexberg View Post
I do not believe that ESL coating is at such high demand which requires "inventors" to keep it secret in order to make huge amount of green staff.
Cheers
No huge demand required, I do this just for my own interest and fun. And a lot of fun it is. Even if I'll never find the prefect working solution or it fails after a few months, I still like what I'm doing in trying to figure this out. Not only the coating, but the whole Quad ESL-63 refurbishing project. So much to explore, so much to learn.
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:22 AM   #916
alexberg is offline alexberg
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Paints' binder is usually a polymer with density around water i.e. 1. Carbon, or graphite for this matter is about 2.1. Assuming very low C content you have to have 30% of trapped air at submicron level. That means you are one super lucky dude who accidentally created aforementioned thing or you're highly qualified material specialist who intentionally did it or measurements of yours are incorrect.
P.S. Rubbing graphite into mylar and then coating it with nylon is simple and reproducible coating if done right, however plane made out of s..t and sticks could not be utilized as a plane.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:48 AM   #917
wout31 is offline wout31
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Originally Posted by alexberg View Post
That means you are one super lucky dude who accidentally created aforementioned thing or you're highly qualified material specialist who intentionally did it or measurements of yours are incorrect.
As I most definitely am not the latter, that only leaves the first option.

The measurements are most definitely correct. Maybe with a (little) tolerance of course, but the thickness is measured with earlier shown thickness meter and weighing is done with 0.001 gram accurate precision jewellery scale (not the $ 10,000 version). Have made hundreds of coatings over the past 2 years and the last months I can repeat the process with same outcome in resistivity, thickness, weight and tension over and over again.
Let me explain calibration and measurement checks again.
- I measure thickness of 2, 3, 6 and 12 micron Mylar. All 4 measure up to the specification with my thickness meter. Tolerance 0.7 micron (according to specifications of manufacturer)
- I take a evenly big square part of Mylar, put it on the scale and all 4 come up to the weight per m2 specified by the manufacturer. Tolerance of the scale is 12% (according to specifications of manufacturer)
- Resistance per square is measured with a meter that ranges to 200 G Ohm. I measure at voltage close as possible to the charge voltage. Measured square is 1x1 inch, very fine silver mesh strips. Measured at multiple location on the spayed coating. Resolution of the meter is 0.01 M ohm. Precision of the resistivity meter is ± 3% + 5 (again according to specification of the manufacturer)
- Tension of the Mylar is measured with an analogue and a digital tension gauge to check if coating influences Mylar tension because of chemical reaction (it does I think as tension changes, so I have to know the result after applying the coating). Accuracy here is 0.001N ± 5% on the digital version. Accuracy on the analogue version is my Fingerspitzengefühl.

No, my meters don't have calibration certificates, so yes they may be off by some percentage

Still no way to measure charge unfortunately

Last edited by wout31; 12th July 2018 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:56 AM   #918
MJ Dijkstra is offline MJ Dijkstra  Netherlands
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Or it is an anti-gravity coating with adaptive resistance depending on the kind of esl you put it on
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Old 12th July 2018, 07:05 AM   #919
wout31 is offline wout31
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Originally Posted by MJ Dijkstra View Post
Or it is an anti-gravity coating with adaptive resistance depending on the kind of esl you put it on
I know anti gravity paint tool exists, but anti gravity paint? Adaptive resistance? Sorry, but your replies always confuse me, because I have no clue at all what you're talking about. Probably way above my pay grade and intelligence. Sorry.
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Old 12th July 2018, 07:47 AM   #920
MJ Dijkstra is offline MJ Dijkstra  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexberg View Post
Paints' binder is usually a polymer with density around water i.e. 1. Carbon, or graphite for this matter is about 2.1. Assuming very low C content you have to have 30% of trapped air at submicron level. That means you are one super lucky dude who accidentally created aforementioned thing or you're highly qualified material specialist who intentionally did it or measurements of yours are incorrect.
P.S. Rubbing graphite into mylar and then coating it with nylon is simple and reproducible coating if done right, however plane made out of s..t and sticks could not be utilized as a plane.

According to a picture supplied by wout31, the coating is very black so there is probably no low C-content (or it should be very, very, thick). So it is even worse than calculated.

Particle size of the used graphite is 3 micron. A binder must be used as well. It is a mission impossible to paint a coating with 3 micron particles suspended in a binder and have a thickness equal to the size of the suspended particles itself. Somehow there is something wrong.

Resistance up to 10^12 Ohm with graphite particle suspended in a binder? Take a look at this: The electrical resistivity of graphite–ICP filler versus wt% graphite... | Download Scientific Diagram
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