[-OC-( CH2)4-CO-NH-(CH2)6-NH-] n
Nylon 6,6 is made of hexamethylene diamine and adipic acid, which give nylon 6,6 a total of 12 carbon atoms, and its name.
To Calvin:
Exact Quad techology has not been disclosed yet - so it is just idle talk.
Quad coating is quite grayish which means it does contain carbon one way or another.
Elvamide dealimination is impressively proved by quad as well - otherwise there will not be that many repair kits on avail, including few provided by DIYaudio community.
DIYaudio has been offered another solution.
It did create lovely discussion mostly because it is fully disclosed like TESA glue one.
Let's treat it the same way by repeating it, instead of looking for the reasons why it CAN NOT BE DONE.
Alex
P.S. If it would of been a simple dehydration - than the coating would of turn opaque reasonably fast.
Hi,
if claims are made that sound doubtfully You should accept that the claims are put to test.
For the procedure shown and the following discussion these claims were made (as far as I understood)
claim1: a diaphragm made of a plastic film like PET is coated with a layer of carbon to achive a certain conductivity. A second layer made from PA6.6 is brought onto the membrane film and said 1st layer to protect the conductive layer from environmental influence.
claim2: The PA6.6 layer heated till it melts. As such the layers are ´welded´ together forming a single conductive compound thats layers don´t delaminate
claim3: the process leads to a film compound with desirable electrical properties
claim4: the process leads to a film compound which is unaffected by environmental stress
claim1: Polyamides prooved to have desirable electrical conductivity for usage as ESL diaphragm coating, apart from a strong relation of resistance values to moisture. The conductivity of PA renders a first conductive layer of carbon obsolete. Especially since a good uniformity of conductivity is very difficult to achieve with carbon layers. If one wishes to remain with carbon as concutive layer a different set of parameters for a protective coating would be desirable, as for example reduced moisture sensitivity, hydrophobicity, increased dielectric strength, higher flammabilty resistance et al.
claim2: The heat treatment is applied to an array of layers of which the base layer is tightly stretched. PET has a specified melting point of 254°C to 260°C, pure PA6.6 one of 260°C. Glass-transition points are similar too at ~60°C-70°C. So immediately before(!) PA6.6 melts the PET film melts too, thereby loosing all its mechanical tension and beeing destroyed.
claim3: Even if it were possible to form a compound film with this technique the uniformity of conductivity would still be no better than that of the original carbon layer and the surface of the ´protective´ PA-layer would still be hyproscopic and moisture sensitive.
claim4: citing from a PA6.6 (or PA66) manufacturere´s Website:
So all in all I strongly doubt that the claims describe what is really happening here and that the result of the process is as claimed.
Instead I assume that the heating reverses the gelling process (cloudy, milky appearance). The solving agent alcohol evaporates and the coating is stabilized (no new gelation, hence it stays transparent)
jauu
Calvin
if claims are made that sound doubtfully You should accept that the claims are put to test.
For the procedure shown and the following discussion these claims were made (as far as I understood)
claim1: a diaphragm made of a plastic film like PET is coated with a layer of carbon to achive a certain conductivity. A second layer made from PA6.6 is brought onto the membrane film and said 1st layer to protect the conductive layer from environmental influence.
claim2: The PA6.6 layer heated till it melts. As such the layers are ´welded´ together forming a single conductive compound thats layers don´t delaminate
claim3: the process leads to a film compound with desirable electrical properties
claim4: the process leads to a film compound which is unaffected by environmental stress
claim1: Polyamides prooved to have desirable electrical conductivity for usage as ESL diaphragm coating, apart from a strong relation of resistance values to moisture. The conductivity of PA renders a first conductive layer of carbon obsolete. Especially since a good uniformity of conductivity is very difficult to achieve with carbon layers. If one wishes to remain with carbon as concutive layer a different set of parameters for a protective coating would be desirable, as for example reduced moisture sensitivity, hydrophobicity, increased dielectric strength, higher flammabilty resistance et al.
claim2: The heat treatment is applied to an array of layers of which the base layer is tightly stretched. PET has a specified melting point of 254°C to 260°C, pure PA6.6 one of 260°C. Glass-transition points are similar too at ~60°C-70°C. So immediately before(!) PA6.6 melts the PET film melts too, thereby loosing all its mechanical tension and beeing destroyed.
claim3: Even if it were possible to form a compound film with this technique the uniformity of conductivity would still be no better than that of the original carbon layer and the surface of the ´protective´ PA-layer would still be hyproscopic and moisture sensitive.
claim4: citing from a PA6.6 (or PA66) manufacturere´s Website:
The volume resistance diagram shows a decrease in the order of 6 exponents over a range from 10e15 down to 10e9 over a range of 0.1% to 8% of moisture content. The tendency to absorb water is increased when fibres or dopings are added.
So all in all I strongly doubt that the claims describe what is really happening here and that the result of the process is as claimed.
Instead I assume that the heating reverses the gelling process (cloudy, milky appearance). The solving agent alcohol evaporates and the coating is stabilized (no new gelation, hence it stays transparent)
jauu
Calvin
The fact that repairs are needed does not prove that the coating delaminates. Do you have any other reason to believe that this is the case?
@Calvin
nice post!
To Calvin: Nice explanation, but have you tried? We are still going towards applied chemistry scholastic discussion.
Quads were in production for quite a while - so we can have some statistics - and could derive some suggestions.
One needs multiple Quad sets in posession to analyze. Delamination is an impression I have got from the internet, unfortunately...
It seems that Calaton/Elvamide recipies have to have a lot of know-how: ethanol soluble nylon coating does not have any adhesion to PET film.
It forms something looking as a thin layer of dust, easily removable
My contibution in "MELT MATTER" was a mere translation...
Again I failed to reproduce what has been described: film has melted but the coating behaved the way it has been shown in clip. I tried an alcohol used in yarn production as solvent... not ethanol, for sure.
It seems though, if phenol was present melting point would be lower...
On the other hand, the biggest challenge is to make a permanent coating - this thread is a proof.
And it's quite possible no such thing exists due to dissimilarity of the substrate and overcoat subjected to uncoutable number of bends not
saying about the environment.
Plazma deposited or otherwise embedded into a membrane conductive material is probably the best known solution - Martin Logan claims so.
BTW Could anybody tell me whether or not TESA glue is water soluble after drying?
Sincerely,
Alex
P.S. At least nobody speaks about "triboelectric" self-charging... or putting some futty acids as a primer...
alexberg
Thanks for supporting my method of coating.
Calvin
Heat treatment changing stretch film (PET) really, but the whole point is that processing of the membrane-coated nylon is advance before installing the ESL. Stretch of the membrane is another topic for conversation.
claim2: The heat treatment is applied to an array of layers of which the base layer is tightly stretched. PET has a specified melting point of 254°C to 260°C, pure PA6.6 one of 260°C. Glass-transition points are similar too at ~60°C-70°C. So immediately before(!) PA6.6 melts the PET film melts too, thereby loosing all its mechanical tension and beeing destroyed.
But you have to notice the fact that the nylon coating is much thinner than the membrane of mylar, and if you look closely watched videos that could be seen in the slow movement of the Hot air gun over the surface of the diaphragm and hence the upper layer warms up more strongly than the lower..
So all in all I strongly doubt that the claims describe what is really happening here and that the result of the process is as claimed.
Instead I assume that the heating reverses the gelling process (cloudy, milky appearance). The solving agent alcohol evaporates and the coating is stabilized (no new gelation, hence it stays transparent)
The fact that the coating nylon only after pre-drying may be subject to thermal treatment.
Thanks for supporting my method of coating.
Calvin
Heat treatment changing stretch film (PET) really, but the whole point is that processing of the membrane-coated nylon is advance before installing the ESL. Stretch of the membrane is another topic for conversation.
claim2: The heat treatment is applied to an array of layers of which the base layer is tightly stretched. PET has a specified melting point of 254°C to 260°C, pure PA6.6 one of 260°C. Glass-transition points are similar too at ~60°C-70°C. So immediately before(!) PA6.6 melts the PET film melts too, thereby loosing all its mechanical tension and beeing destroyed.
But you have to notice the fact that the nylon coating is much thinner than the membrane of mylar, and if you look closely watched videos that could be seen in the slow movement of the Hot air gun over the surface of the diaphragm and hence the upper layer warms up more strongly than the lower..
So all in all I strongly doubt that the claims describe what is really happening here and that the result of the process is as claimed.
Instead I assume that the heating reverses the gelling process (cloudy, milky appearance). The solving agent alcohol evaporates and the coating is stabilized (no new gelation, hence it stays transparent)
The fact that the coating nylon only after pre-drying may be subject to thermal treatment.
Last edited:
Calvin
claim3: Even if it were possible to form a compound film with this technique the uniformity of conductivity would still be no better than that of the original carbon layer and the surface of the ´protective´ PA-layer would still be hyproscopic and moisture sensitive.
The volume resistance diagram shows a decrease in the order of 6 exponents over a range from 10e15 down to 10e9 over a range of 0.1% to 8% of moisture content.
But the resistance of the coating and should not be less than 10e9 ohms.
In other words, nylon 6.6 has all the qualities necessary to cover the membrane
claim3: Even if it were possible to form a compound film with this technique the uniformity of conductivity would still be no better than that of the original carbon layer and the surface of the ´protective´ PA-layer would still be hyproscopic and moisture sensitive.
The volume resistance diagram shows a decrease in the order of 6 exponents over a range from 10e15 down to 10e9 over a range of 0.1% to 8% of moisture content.
But the resistance of the coating and should not be less than 10e9 ohms.
In other words, nylon 6.6 has all the qualities necessary to cover the membrane
Last edited:
JonasKarud
I would like to try your method, can you make a list of what is needed?
I have mylar, 6 and 12 uM, I also have a heat gun with adjustable heat.
This is a very labor-intensive process requires great precision in the work on this, the video shows one of the stages of this process. If you're ready. Contact me by mail.
P.S. In general, my method is available here : http://www.audioportal.su/showthread.php?t=11841&page=3
I would like to try your method, can you make a list of what is needed?
I have mylar, 6 and 12 uM, I also have a heat gun with adjustable heat.
This is a very labor-intensive process requires great precision in the work on this, the video shows one of the stages of this process. If you're ready. Contact me by mail.
P.S. In general, my method is available here : http://www.audioportal.su/showthread.php?t=11841&page=3
Last edited:
I have seen hundreds of Quad panels (I refurbish them) and have never seen anything that looked like the coating coming off. I know this is what people write, the only thing I can say is that there is a lot of stuff out there on the web which just ain't true. Some panels do look like they were only partially coated in a sloppy way, and this is probably the case
I've done some experiments with a heat gun, Prostat and Mylar. I took a small circular frame, mounted a 6uM mylar film to it, applied a thin coat of Prostat, placed it
carefully floating on a water surface in a small bowl. Then with a 1000 Watt, 400 degree heat gun, i tried to fuse the Prostat into the Mylar. The Mylar doesn't melt due to the cold water pressing on the other side. Its very difficult to decide if this approach is better than than ordinary "painting", further testing lays ahead...
ps.Statics man, thanks for the link to the russian thread!
I can tell you that computers have long way to go when it comes to translation...
carefully floating on a water surface in a small bowl. Then with a 1000 Watt, 400 degree heat gun, i tried to fuse the Prostat into the Mylar. The Mylar doesn't melt due to the cold water pressing on the other side. Its very difficult to decide if this approach is better than than ordinary "painting", further testing lays ahead...
ps.Statics man, thanks for the link to the russian thread!
I can tell you that computers have long way to go when it comes to translation...
Last edited:
I can help to translate, sometimes, if time permits.
Jonas, do you have an access to a microscope with/without camera.
If the surface structure changes - so be it.
BTW A piece of smooth sheetmetal aluminum/copper shall work almost as good as water... just do not stay at one spot for a long time.
Alex
Hi! Jonas. Google makes wonderful translation.
You try to use a soluble nylon 6.6. It is necessary to dissolve it in phenol with isopropanol in the ratio 8:2. At 10 ml. "Solvent" to dissolve 0.5gr. nylon 6.6.
Apply a very thin layer of the soluble nylon 6.6, To roll it a special roller over the surface of the membrane.
Dry it at 70 C - 80 C the heat gun. After drying, the layer will receive a video clip of white hue.And now you can try to weld two-layer mylar with nylon 6.6, using the heat gun as a video clip.
Last edited:
To Valery: I am not as good as Google or Babelfish so it's my humble help to you, StaticMan
Method of graphite coating by rubbing graphite dust into membrane.
1. Glue membrane to a wooden frame, heat shrink it using hairdryer or halogen lamp.
Frame size has to be surely larger than esl panel, allowing membrane to be attached to the final frame without detachment from the wooden one.
2. Clean membrane using cotton cloth soaked with isopropyl alcohol.
3. Sprinkle membrane with graphite crumbles ginding the piece of graphite against the sandpaper.
4. Rub graphite into membrane till crumbles disappear. Try to achieve even coating.
Use a piece of foam about 1in thick glued to veneer holder 50x100x5 mm in size.
5. Remove excessive graphite using vacuum cleaner.
6. Measure membrane resistance using uA meter and 6kV power supply. Readings shall be 3-6 uA which is equal to 1e9-2e9 Ohms
7. Apply thin layer of Nylon overcoat, using thin cloth wrapped glue roller.
Overcoat composition:
Phenol - 60 g
Isopropanol -30 mL
Nylon 66 - 3 to 5 g (author used German made fishing line cut into 2-3 cm piecies).
PROPER VENTILATION OF THE PROCEDURE DESCRIBED BELOW IS A MUST
Make a water bath, i.e. put a jar with components into a larger bowl partially filled with water.
Try to keep water temperature at 80 C. Stirr solution continiously till all nylon pieces are dissolved.
Close the jar lid. Coating gelation is possible. Heat the jar using hot water if the latter happens.
8. Dry membrame using hairdryer.
9. Check resistance It has to be 3e9 - 6e9 Ohms
10. Both sides have to be coated.
With the best regards,
.........
Step #11, as I understood it, is shown on the video.
Pretty much close to phenol-alcohol technology cited on the WEB.
[QUOTE = мало; 2035811] Из данных по безопасности (MSDS) для фенола:
MSDS сделать все [/ i] звука опасно, но я видел студентов в итоге действительно неприятные ожоги от фенола такая осторожность, безусловно, по порядку. [/ QUOTE]
Uses :
Description
The main use of phenol is as a feedstock for
phenolic resins, bisphenol A and caprolactam (an
intermediate in the production of nylon-6). It is used
in the manufacture of many products including
insulation materials, adhesives, lacquers, paint,
rubber, ink, dyes, illuminating gases, perfumes, soaps
and toys (IARC, 1989; WHO, 1994). Also used in
embalming and research laboratories. It is a product
of the decomposition of organic materials, liquid
manure, and the atmospheric degradation of
benzene.
It is found in some commercial disinfectants,
antiseptics, lotions and ointments. Phenol is active
against a wide range of microorganisms, and there are
some medical and pharmaceutical applications including
topical anaesthetic and ear drops, sclerosing agent.
It is also used in the treatment of ingrown nails in
the "nail matrix phenolization method" (Kimata et al.,
1995). Another medical application of phenol is its
use as a neurolytic agent, applied in order to relieve
spasms and chronic pain (Wood, 1978; Geller,
1997).
It is used in dermatology for chemical face peeling.
MSDS сделать все [/ i] звука опасно, но я видел студентов в итоге действительно неприятные ожоги от фенола такая осторожность, безусловно, по порядку. [/ QUOTE]
Uses :
Description
The main use of phenol is as a feedstock for
phenolic resins, bisphenol A and caprolactam (an
intermediate in the production of nylon-6). It is used
in the manufacture of many products including
insulation materials, adhesives, lacquers, paint,
rubber, ink, dyes, illuminating gases, perfumes, soaps
and toys (IARC, 1989; WHO, 1994). Also used in
embalming and research laboratories. It is a product
of the decomposition of organic materials, liquid
manure, and the atmospheric degradation of
benzene.
It is found in some commercial disinfectants,
antiseptics, lotions and ointments. Phenol is active
against a wide range of microorganisms, and there are
some medical and pharmaceutical applications including
topical anaesthetic and ear drops, sclerosing agent.
It is also used in the treatment of ingrown nails in
the "nail matrix phenolization method" (Kimata et al.,
1995). Another medical application of phenol is its
use as a neurolytic agent, applied in order to relieve
spasms and chronic pain (Wood, 1978; Geller,
1997).
It is used in dermatology for chemical face peeling.
Specific preventative measures
Phenol should be kept in a tightly closed container, in
a cool, dry place, away from heat, flame and oxidising
agents. It is light sensitive and should be kept in the dark
(WHO, 1994).
Protective clothing should will be appropriate to the amount
and form of the phenol being handled. It should be handled
wearing an approved respirator; viton, butyl rubber or
neoprene gloves (not nitrile or PVA gloves), safety goggles
and other protective clothing. Safety showers and
polyethylene glycol 300 should be near where phenol is being
handled.
Is it any point in heat treating a mylar film after Elvamide coating has been applied? Has anyone tried this?
I am concidering the following procedure for fitting the diapragm to the stator.
1. Coat glass plate with soap water and flatten out mylar film
2. Fit mylar diaphragm to temporary frame with double sided tape
Clean the mylar with ?? Soap and water in shower?Acetone?
3. Apply luke warm Elvamide solution (doped with ink or not?) Spray or roll?
4. Allow to dry for a few hours
5. Carefully heath shrink mylar film hopefully also create a clear elvamide coating
6. Glue membrane to stator/spacer assembly one side using Loctite 303 with activator
(One component on spacer, one coponent on film)
7. Glue other stator/spacer on top of the other
I use perforated metal stators and I guess it's is not smart heating the stator as it might twist.
Any comments or suggestion will be appreciated.
Regards
Bent
I am concidering the following procedure for fitting the diapragm to the stator.
1. Coat glass plate with soap water and flatten out mylar film
2. Fit mylar diaphragm to temporary frame with double sided tape
Clean the mylar with ?? Soap and water in shower?Acetone?
3. Apply luke warm Elvamide solution (doped with ink or not?) Spray or roll?
4. Allow to dry for a few hours
5. Carefully heath shrink mylar film hopefully also create a clear elvamide coating
6. Glue membrane to stator/spacer assembly one side using Loctite 303 with activator
(One component on spacer, one coponent on film)
7. Glue other stator/spacer on top of the other
I use perforated metal stators and I guess it's is not smart heating the stator as it might twist.
Any comments or suggestion will be appreciated.
Regards
Bent
I recommend to work with film to use a special frame for stretching the membrane. Frame size should be such so that the loudspeaker can be glued directly on the frame, while not breaking stretch film.
All operations of a conductive coating layer and cover it with nylon 6.6 from external atmospheric impact is made on the frame.
After working with coating is necessary to stretch a film of the membrane , for to glue the stators.
All operations of a conductive coating layer and cover it with nylon 6.6 from external atmospheric impact is made on the frame.
After working with coating is necessary to stretch a film of the membrane , for to glue the stators.
Last edited: