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Old 27th September 2009, 08:42 PM   #1331
SunRa is offline SunRa  Romania
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Hey, soundcheck, I know you are looking for a mini-ITX solution. Look at these systems here: http://atechfabrication.com/index.htm

Also, if you can wait a couple of months, the new Clarkdale can prove to be a great choice: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=3648
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Old 27th September 2009, 08:44 PM   #1332
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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Soundcheck,

It is very simple. If you do not like it, either try to fix it, or get used to it, or use something else. Useless bashing and complaining on this forum wastes just everyone's time.

Yes, Alsa wiki is very outdated. You are good with wikis - why don't you make it your project? It's not about direct programming knowledge, but willingness to ask corresponding people and keep wiki updated.

There cannot be any roadmap for the drivers since the project admins have no idea who comes up with a new driver for which hardware. Many drivers require NDAs (both Juli and Quartet drivers are a result of incomplete but absolutely essential information provided by the manufacturers) and the admins have no idea who is negotiating another NDA at this moment.

Linux is not aimed at beginners and will not be so for quite a while. I personally have absolutely no problem with that as I understand the dynamics behind linux - NOTHING GETS BETTER BY ITSELF.
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Old 27th September 2009, 09:32 PM   #1333
Theo404 is offline Theo404  United Kingdom
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Whats your huge issue with alsa soundcheck? To me it does what it needs to and does it well. I see it as just the driver... something there so I can put hw:X,X at the end of my signal chain and have the soundcard receive the data.... what exactly do you want it to do that its not? I wouldnt want it mixing or volume controlling, do you?
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Old 27th September 2009, 09:44 PM   #1334
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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A bit of good news never hurts - fascinating reading

http://dot.kde.org/2009/09/26/what-i...summer-holiday
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Old 28th September 2009, 08:52 AM   #1335
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Perhaps this discussion makes normal users feel a bit odd about Linux Audio. Take it as a constructive discussion to get things nailed down instead of talking them down all the time.

Linux Audio with Alsa improved a lot in recent years in terms of stability and device support. And I would always recommend to try it. You won't be able to get a better sound -- under certain conditions - from a PC.

However:

Quote:
Originally Posted by phofman View Post
Soundcheck,

It is very simple. If you do not like it, either try to fix it, or get used to it, or use something else. Useless bashing and complaining on this forum wastes just everyone's time.
Especially it wastes my time to figure out all the mess. Once I've written it down it's easy
to follow. I think though you're changing subject. In the end you confirm in earlier answers all the shortcomings.

You might have also realized that I am pushing -- or at least try to - Linux since I started this thread. I do this also at AA.

Not to forget a Linux system consists of more then Alsa - which should actually be transparent to the user. And for sure I don't have time to cover Alsa only.

You are the Alsa guy around here. Consider this discussion as a user feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phofman View Post

Yes, Alsa wiki is very outdated. You are good with wikis - why don't you make it your project?
Here we go again - All the time you admit the mess and at the same time you don't want to talk about it. If problems get identified they can be resolved. That's the problem with the Alsa guys. If it comes to "administrative" and "general" issues I get a feeling they are not interested.

One question: You've done a great job with your driver!! No question about it. Did you do
the documentation about it? Updated the Wiki? Explained the controls? How they work together or interact? Any "help" text? To me this would be part of a job. I know it's PITA, though it has to be done. Does Alsa tell you if you're supposed to supply above doc at all?

BTW. I do make my own projects. Perhaps you missed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phofman View Post

There cannot be any roadmap for the drivers since the project admins have no idea who comes up with a new driver for which hardware. Many drivers require NDAs (both Juli and Quartet drivers are a result of incomplete but absolutely essential information provided by the manufacturers) and the admins have no idea who is negotiating another NDA at this moment.
Don't forget and mix it up - we are not only talking drivers in particular. Go a couple of posts back. Let me know if you find any comments about drivers!

IMO the main problem with Alsa is No roadmap, no (official) planning - is there any strategy - or just troubleshooting and a bit of maintenance.

If you ever seen a computer science class at university or if you've been working in a design department. The whole SW development won't start with hacking.

First comes planning and related documentation (specs). Otherwise it is wild hacking and you end up in a total mess.

Two words about drivers:
I know there is quite some open stuff available e.g. EMU 0404USB OSX driver. It would take a week for an experienced programmer or less to get it converted. Nobody is taking it. Nobody is saying -- you - instead of doing this - you do this. Everything just happens
coincidental. This is my impression at least. Another nice example is Metric Halo. Probably one of the best, if not the best commercial, audio gear on the planet. They make the specs available and nobody is taking it on. No -- this is not good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phofman View Post
Linux is not aimed at beginners and will not be so for quite a while. I personally have absolutely no problem with that as I understand the dynamics behind linux - NOTHING GETS BETTER BY ITSELF.
That's your opinion. And that's exactly the difference between your and my argumentation. You are living still on the "good old times" hacker planet. I'd call myself an advanced user with an engineering and ICT industry background.

Ask Mark Shuttleworth what he thinks about the "new" Linux target group.
Why is putting SUN and other industry members money into it. For sure not because Linux is supposed to stay a hacker paradise.

There is a lot to do. I'm well aware of it.

Cheers
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Old 28th September 2009, 10:12 AM   #1336
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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I know there is quite some open stuff available e.g. EMU 0404USB OSX driver. It would take a week for an experienced programmer or less to get it converted. Nobody is taking it. Nobody is saying -- you - instead of doing this - you do this. Everything just happens
coincidental. This is my impression at least. Another nice example is Metric Halo. Probably one of the best, if not the best commercial, audio gear on the planet. They make the specs available and nobody is taking it on. No -- this is not good.


Why don't YOU buy the HW, find a developer, and pay him to write the driver, if nobody has done it so far? You can do so many things, instead of just complaining.

AFAIK there are two paid developers for alsa - Jaroslav (RedHat) and Takashi (Novel). All the others are either paid by HW manufacturers (Intel, Nvidia, ATI), or do it as a hobby in the evenings (the vast majority).
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Old 28th September 2009, 10:31 AM   #1337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phofman View Post
[I]
Why don't YOU buy the HW, find a developer, and pay him to write the driver, if nobody has done it so far? You can do so many things, instead of just complaining.
I don't complain. I am giving feedback to an Alsa guy.

I am doing things - other things than Alsa design of course.

I intend first of all to respond to your arguments and obviously you change subject as soon as you run out of arguments. Just to throw out a "Do it by yourself - don't complain" I don't consider a pretty constructive attitude.

This discussions is obviously useless.
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Old 28th September 2009, 11:09 AM   #1338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunRa View Post
Hey, soundcheck, I know you are looking for a mini-ITX solution. Look at these systems here: http://atechfabrication.com/index.htm

Also, if you can wait a couple of months, the new Clarkdale can prove to be a great choice: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=3648
Looks pretty cool. THX.
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Old 28th September 2009, 11:16 AM   #1339
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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Soundcheck,

this is how the quartet driver was conceived:

http://mailman.alsa-project.org/pipe...er/012509.html

Perhaps if you contact the manufacturer, find out about their willingness to provide docs under NDA, and share the outcome with the mailing list, someone will go for it.

About the cards documentation - if you want to be constructive, let's make a deal. I do not like writing structured wikis, you are good at that. If you expand the wiki at alsa-project .org so that driver authors (who generally suck at writing) can easily add description of their card's controls (i.e. probably extending the table http://alsa-project.org/main/index.p...rix:Vendor-ESI ), I will document Juli, Prodigy 192, and Infrasonic Quartet controls.

Quartet will need a new manufacturer added to http://alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Matrix:Main - I have no idea how to do it. Perhaps changing that special list to a regular editable wiki page would be of help.

Very likely a subsequent message to the mailing list will inspire other coders to complete the documentation.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 09:01 AM   #1340
nmiljac is offline nmiljac  Germany
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It all depends .... far more commercial gear out there runs Linux that you might imagine.

Some of them really high end audio gear. All running commercial embedded Linux.

Is it unreliable? No.
User friendly? Yes.
Sound good? Yes.
Performance problems? No.
Expensive? Yes.

You cannot expect really good sound from a PC and a sound card. Jitter, opamps, cheap components, noisy PC power supplies ....

Speaking of software, if you take stock open source software and try to build something - of course it will not do everything you would need or like.
Different people have different views and encounter different problems and solve them and thus contribute to projects.
If not happy, join the project and improve it or start a new one.

If you can not or don't want to do it, you'll have to hire people to write it if you are commercial or wait for the community if you are a hobbyist (patience required).

If you don't like to do any of the above, buy Microsoft or Apple and be prepared to live within their limitations.

Linux audio - the way to go? A big YES.
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