I searched for a thread devoted to this question and found a thread from last year, but it was inconclusive.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/294764-dac-raspberry-pi.html
I need only a very basic DAC with RCA line outs. I don't need an onboard headphone amp or speaker amp. Because I'll be using external amplifiers that have their own volume controls, I don't need a hardware volume control built into the DAC.
I've been reading that using a good linear PSU improves the sound quite a bit, no matter which DAC one uses. Therefore, I'm planning to build a regulated 5V linear PSU for the Pi and whichever DAC HAT I choose. 5VDC 3A should be adequate for the PSU, correct?
Reading through various MoOde and other threads, it looks like the Mamboberry LS DAC+ is considered to be the best sounding HAT DAC at the moment. It would cost about $75 USD shipped to me in the USA.
I've seen glowing reviews of the Durio Sound Basic. It would cost about $55 USD. Has anyone heard both this and the Mamboberry LS DAC+ and can say whether they sound immediately, noticeably different? Or is there a bit of audiophilic splitting of hairs involved?
The IQaudIO Pi-DAC+ would cost only about $40 USD shipped. It's based on a TI PCM5122. Does that mean it's going to sound worse than a well-implemented ES9023-based DAC?
Finally, there's the Hifiberry DAC+ Light. That's a simple ES9023 based DAC HAT for less than $30 USD. It's the least expensive contender. I've read very differing opinions on the Hifiberry DACs. Some say they sound great, others say they sound noticeably worse than the Mamboberry, Durio Sound, IQaudIO, and others. Are the differences in sound quality between DACs swamped by the improvement to be had by using a linear PSU instead of the switcher?
I've seen mention of other DAC HATs as well. It seems there are a lot of them.
So, what's the hot HAT DAC of the moment? Is it as simple as 'you get what you pay for so get the Mamboberry'?
Thanks for opinions or any guidance you can throw my way.
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http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/294764-dac-raspberry-pi.html
I need only a very basic DAC with RCA line outs. I don't need an onboard headphone amp or speaker amp. Because I'll be using external amplifiers that have their own volume controls, I don't need a hardware volume control built into the DAC.
I've been reading that using a good linear PSU improves the sound quite a bit, no matter which DAC one uses. Therefore, I'm planning to build a regulated 5V linear PSU for the Pi and whichever DAC HAT I choose. 5VDC 3A should be adequate for the PSU, correct?
Reading through various MoOde and other threads, it looks like the Mamboberry LS DAC+ is considered to be the best sounding HAT DAC at the moment. It would cost about $75 USD shipped to me in the USA.
I've seen glowing reviews of the Durio Sound Basic. It would cost about $55 USD. Has anyone heard both this and the Mamboberry LS DAC+ and can say whether they sound immediately, noticeably different? Or is there a bit of audiophilic splitting of hairs involved?
The IQaudIO Pi-DAC+ would cost only about $40 USD shipped. It's based on a TI PCM5122. Does that mean it's going to sound worse than a well-implemented ES9023-based DAC?
Finally, there's the Hifiberry DAC+ Light. That's a simple ES9023 based DAC HAT for less than $30 USD. It's the least expensive contender. I've read very differing opinions on the Hifiberry DACs. Some say they sound great, others say they sound noticeably worse than the Mamboberry, Durio Sound, IQaudIO, and others. Are the differences in sound quality between DACs swamped by the improvement to be had by using a linear PSU instead of the switcher?
I've seen mention of other DAC HATs as well. It seems there are a lot of them.
So, what's the hot HAT DAC of the moment? Is it as simple as 'you get what you pay for so get the Mamboberry'?
Thanks for opinions or any guidance you can throw my way.
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If I were to buy a DAC now, and a Kali was not in my plans, I'd buy an Allo BOSS:
https://allo.com/sparky/boss-dac.html
I run a Mamboberry LS DAC+ with Kali, and the Boss sounds almost as good, on the same amp and driving the same speakers .
https://allo.com/sparky/boss-dac.html
I run a Mamboberry LS DAC+ with Kali, and the Boss sounds almost as good, on the same amp and driving the same speakers .
Hi.
After fiddling around with some of them I'd agree with Yatshushiro.
Here's my project.
Neither a Kali, nor a 2nd supply is a must. A 2nd supply should give some advantages.
Many other DACs are rather basic implementations.
The stock MamboBerry is quite nice compared to many other HATs on the market. (There is an Audiophonics HAT that's coming very close)
The MambBerry still has "huge" tweak potential though!
Stay away from HifiBerry.
You'll get what you pay for.
And don't forget:
The Allo Boss comes with a solid kernel driver nowadays.
That's a bit of a problem if running e.g. a Sabre based HAT!
These Sabre drivers are community supplied and maintained.
And. In my opinion it's a well maintained myth that linear supplies is that what you need.
IMO it's not. I'm more than happy with my iFi iPowers ( and I have got several linears in the workshop settling dust!).
Good luck.
After fiddling around with some of them I'd agree with Yatshushiro.
Here's my project.
Neither a Kali, nor a 2nd supply is a must. A 2nd supply should give some advantages.
Many other DACs are rather basic implementations.
The stock MamboBerry is quite nice compared to many other HATs on the market. (There is an Audiophonics HAT that's coming very close)
The MambBerry still has "huge" tweak potential though!
Stay away from HifiBerry.
You'll get what you pay for.
And don't forget:
The Allo Boss comes with a solid kernel driver nowadays.
That's a bit of a problem if running e.g. a Sabre based HAT!
These Sabre drivers are community supplied and maintained.
And. In my opinion it's a well maintained myth that linear supplies is that what you need.
IMO it's not. I'm more than happy with my iFi iPowers ( and I have got several linears in the workshop settling dust!).
Good luck.
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Particularly what is what do you think is bad about the IQAudIO board? It is a very standard implementation of the BurrBrown chip, by their specs.
...because is performs extremely well in my system, with excellent sound (and I do have a VERY revealing system, according to those that have listened to it). As an engineer I tend to trust numbers, and boards with similar architecture do EXTREMLY good in benchmarks, comparable with DACs costing serious heaps of money.
"Just by looking at the board" - sorry, but this is one of the worse statements I have ever read. Look here (hifiberry uses the same DAC chip, should measure about the same). Basically no noise, very high quality sound output. I don't really think anyone can hear a difference between these boards and DAC costing 20-30 times as much, and I don't believe anyone saying they do (and trying to sell the snake oil), without a proper A-B test.
Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: Raspberry Pi 3 & HiFiBerry DAC+ Pro (Audio Streaming)
...because is performs extremely well in my system, with excellent sound (and I do have a VERY revealing system, according to those that have listened to it). As an engineer I tend to trust numbers, and boards with similar architecture do EXTREMLY good in benchmarks, comparable with DACs costing serious heaps of money.
"Just by looking at the board" - sorry, but this is one of the worse statements I have ever read. Look here (hifiberry uses the same DAC chip, should measure about the same). Basically no noise, very high quality sound output. I don't really think anyone can hear a difference between these boards and DAC costing 20-30 times as much, and I don't believe anyone saying they do (and trying to sell the snake oil), without a proper A-B test.
Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: Raspberry Pi 3 & HiFiBerry DAC+ Pro (Audio Streaming)
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Oh Jeeze.
I should have known. Another follower of Archimago - A guy who never measures any differences (and fails to question his tools and measurements), who never hears a difference of anything and who never expects anything to be different....
....the perfect reference :rolleyes
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Yep.
We could build all our DACs according to datasheet with crappy parts. Fair enough.
However. Since we're at DIY-Audio - we do know better!
The DAC chips are just minor contributors to the sound - IMO.
The peripherals (board-layout, parts, clocks, LDOs, PS) are the main contributors.
That's been discussed and "implemented" a hundred million times over here at DIY-A.
A nice DAC chip won't help if the surroundings suck.
On the other hand a potentially mediocre DAC can shine if you have the surroundings right.
That's we've seen in several ES9023 projects.
All this is not just one-dimensional.
I'm an engineer myself btw. After running numerous projects myself over the years, I think I do have a pretty good idea what's going on there. And I'm well aware of limitations
of audio measurements btw!
Enjoy.
I should have known. Another follower of Archimago - A guy who never measures any differences (and fails to question his tools and measurements), who never hears a difference of anything and who never expects anything to be different....
....the perfect reference :rolleyes
####
Yep.
We could build all our DACs according to datasheet with crappy parts. Fair enough.
However. Since we're at DIY-Audio - we do know better!
The DAC chips are just minor contributors to the sound - IMO.
The peripherals (board-layout, parts, clocks, LDOs, PS) are the main contributors.
That's been discussed and "implemented" a hundred million times over here at DIY-A.
A nice DAC chip won't help if the surroundings suck.
On the other hand a potentially mediocre DAC can shine if you have the surroundings right.
That's we've seen in several ES9023 projects.
All this is not just one-dimensional.
I'm an engineer myself btw. After running numerous projects myself over the years, I think I do have a pretty good idea what's going on there. And I'm well aware of limitations
of audio measurements btw!
Enjoy.
"Kali + Piano 2.1"
I own both. I read about people raving about the 2.0 setup.
I honestly never felt motivated to go for that project.
As good as the Boss already is. I still prefer my DIY ES9023 + Kali setup in sync master-clock mode.
What I don't like about these PCM51xx based DACs in particular is that DSP (filters) inside.
I own both. I read about people raving about the 2.0 setup.
I honestly never felt motivated to go for that project.
As good as the Boss already is. I still prefer my DIY ES9023 + Kali setup in sync master-clock mode.
What I don't like about these PCM51xx based DACs in particular is that DSP (filters) inside.
I did analyze his measurement methods, and can't find ANY major fault with them. Asking you again, as from engineer to engineer, where can you see a fault with his results?
What "golden" parameter, drastically improving the sound, did he miss?
Are those parameters measured as very good in 1000 EUR DACs and very bad for 30 EUR DACs?
Did you personally do an A-B test and found out that IQAudIO sounds like crap?
BTW crappy parts.. HUH? exactly what do you consider crappy in the IQAudio board, and how does it degrade the sound? Like I said, I do have a VERY GOOD system myself, and it sounds very good with this small board.
What "golden" parameter, drastically improving the sound, did he miss?
Are those parameters measured as very good in 1000 EUR DACs and very bad for 30 EUR DACs?
Did you personally do an A-B test and found out that IQAudIO sounds like crap?
BTW crappy parts.. HUH? exactly what do you consider crappy in the IQAudio board, and how does it degrade the sound? Like I said, I do have a VERY GOOD system myself, and it sounds very good with this small board.
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I think you should try the Piano 2.1 in dual mono setting (Volumio). I also didn't feel the motivation to do it, but I did, and I like the dual mono setting very much. I also own both and I like the Boss (which I use with picoreplayer and a linear psu) very much but the imaging of the dual mono setting of the Piano is - in my opionion - very special. The sound is very open and attractive.
Do you consider the IFI psu as equal to linear power supplies? Or, do you consider it as better?
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Yeah somehow I can't stand the argumentation like:"It's crappy because I said so!", by someone who obviously never even listened to it. especially on a thread called "Cheap DAC HAT" 
. Someone should still do an A-B test, and prove that linear power sources, and DACs costing upwards of 100 EUR (as proposed here) are really than much better than ones under 50 EUR, with a standard RPI power source.
. Someone should still do an A-B test, and prove that linear power sources, and DACs costing upwards of 100 EUR (as proposed here) are really than much better than ones under 50 EUR, with a standard RPI power source.
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Not necessarily. If they do, then what?
RPi Audio, and it's associated paraphernalia, whatever the cost, is about choice; yours, mine and Soundchecks.
I started out with an IQAudio DAC, found it a little sterile, or clean, for my music and listening, then moved on to a Mamboberry LS DAC, then a Piano 2.1 and a Boss, and now a little experimentation with a cheap ES9028Q2M. I know which my favourite is, and which one I'd prefer to use to listen to my music. I bet someone, somewhere, could show me the numbers to prove my choice is incorrect...
Well, this thread took off! OK, keep calm please...
The Allo Boss is $71.50 shipped, so is twice as expensive as the Hifiberry DAC+ and IQaudIO Pi-DAC+. It's right up there with the Mamboberry LS DAC+ ($75 shipped). So for me, it looks like the recommendable choices are:
For cheeeeep = IQaudIO PiDAC+ at $40 USD (including shipping).
Next step up = Allo Boss DAC at $71.50 USD (including shipping).
It's possible an Allo Piano 2.1 + Kali combo is slightly better than the Boss DAC by itself when run dual-mono, but costs $115.50 USD with shipping, not including a better 5VDC PSU.
Thanks for your input, everybody.
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The Allo Boss is $71.50 shipped, so is twice as expensive as the Hifiberry DAC+ and IQaudIO Pi-DAC+. It's right up there with the Mamboberry LS DAC+ ($75 shipped). So for me, it looks like the recommendable choices are:
For cheeeeep = IQaudIO PiDAC+ at $40 USD (including shipping).
Next step up = Allo Boss DAC at $71.50 USD (including shipping).
It's possible an Allo Piano 2.1 + Kali combo is slightly better than the Boss DAC by itself when run dual-mono, but costs $115.50 USD with shipping, not including a better 5VDC PSU.
Thanks for your input, everybody.
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Ok. You got me. I'll try the Piano in dual mono. Is it gonna be dual double mono or dual single mono ?
Is there any short track info available?
****
The stock iFi IMO lacks a bit of power/time in comparison to some of my linears.
That'll lead to something some might call it a bit "flat" sounding or might conclude about slightly weaker dynamics.
There are IMO good reasons for it - just by looking at the device!
My measures fighting that:
1. I cut that extremely long cable down to around 10inches and reattached the ferrite.
2. I added some fast low esr buffer capacity at the end of the cable.
3. I don't use the stock plugs or adapters. I solder the cable right to the device or use Wago connectors.
With these measures in place I'm not tempted to replace this setup with any of my linear supplies.
I do very well understand why somebody would prefer a good linear supply over a stock iFi iPower "without" above measures in place.
However. IMO it's not about SMPS vs. linear, it's again about the implementation of it.
And not to forget. The application IMO also has an impact! It's different if u run a PI or router with an iFi or if you run a DAC with it. My router runs with a stock version my DAC gets a tweaked version.
Enjoy.
@soundcheck
To get Piano 2.1 in dual mono you will need this version of Volumio: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwRHgia-WFv2NzFfYldRWmY1dlk/view
Selecting 2.0 mode will give dual stereo. Selecting 2.1 mode will give dual mono from the outer RCAs, the inner ones being inactive.
To get Piano 2.1 in dual mono you will need this version of Volumio: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwRHgia-WFv2NzFfYldRWmY1dlk/view
Selecting 2.0 mode will give dual stereo. Selecting 2.1 mode will give dual mono from the outer RCAs, the inner ones being inactive.
I started out with an IQAudio DAC, found it a little sterile, or clean, for my music and listening, then moved on to a Mamboberry LS DAC, then a Piano 2.1 and a Boss, and now a little experimentation with a cheap ES9028Q2M. I know which my favourite is...[/QUOTE]
Go on then, I'll bite
Which one wins for you?
Go on then, I'll bite
Which one wins for you?
Hi Luke
I actually have two current favourites (different rooms, different acoustics etc)
:#1 Allo Boss, RPi2, TPA3250 into Q Acoustics 2050i
#2 Mamboberry LS DAC+, RPi3, TPA3251 into Q Acoustics 3020
I'm also quite enjoying a 5v battery pack powered RPi Zero W, with an IQAudio DAC+ driving a pair of HD681EVO headphones when I'm in the garden.
All of my RPis run PCP.
I actually have two current favourites (different rooms, different acoustics etc)
Hi Yatsushiro,
Like choosing your favourite child
Interesting, thanks. You may recall I was about to buy the Mamboberry, partly on your recommendation, but opted for the Boss. No regrets at all, sounds great. I suspect I would have been just as happy with the Mambo LS.
And for the OP, for what it's worth, I lived happily with an IQaudio for many years and thought that was great too. The improvement I feel I have gained in the Boss is noticeable and pleasing to me, but not entirely earth-shattering. You pay your money and make your choice!
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