That's not true.
ES909038Q2M is a different DAC than ES9028Q2M. They have different sound style, different digital filters, many different internal resistors. ES9038Q2M's internal resistance is 774 ohm higher than 403 ohm of ES9038Q2M, and they are not doubling. I don't think they have same DAC core.
DoP decoding is just some additional logic, has nothing to do with DAC core.
Regards,
Ian
thanks a lot for your effort to summarize the info, pretty useful!
however more detailed es9018 and 28pro comparison is given here : A Look Inside the New ES9028PRO Converter Chip and the New DAC3 - Benchmark Media Systems, Inc.
also es9018k2m is a little bit more different than 1/4 of es9018, so far I remember.
It is rare that one experience with DACs on a completely different system can be so strikingly identical
My experience mirrors Ian's. ES9018 - Liquid, 3D, Natural. ES9038Q2M - Larger but flatter soundstage, more details but not liquid or 3D.
For me 4 things matter. Separation of instruments
I am back to ES9018. I have yet to try ES9038Pro or ES9028Pro. Based on Ian's tests above - I think I 'll skip ES9030Pro but try ES9028Pro.
Thanks madds1 for sharing your experience.
It's amazing! I'm glad you have same feelings with me. That's reasonable. Now I'm more confident about my testing result.
I didn't noticed that much when I test them by my Sennheiser headphone at beginning. But when I moved them to my big system for serious listening , I realized the difference immediately.
Regarding to my personal listening preference, the follow things are really matter for me:
1. Sound stage;
2. 3D feelings
3. Image and focusing
4. Nature
Very similar to you! I also believe those are the key reasons why I developed my FIFO project.
Regards,
Ian
Not sure about skipping ES9038Pro. My experience with it (Hifime UDA38Pro) fits the first part of the Sonica description. The tiring, fatigue, etc. could easily be due to the rest of the implementation by Oppo. Even the Hifime went through a revision. The first version sounded as Ian described. They for a not-well explained reason they made a revision and sent me a replacement. The internals are different and it sounded much better. I just think these are tricky chips to work with.
My ES9038Q2M mirrors Ian's based on the Topping D50 I heard (dual mono). I have not heard the 9028Pro though.
It's not true.
ES9028Q2M basically roughly equals to two ES9018K2M with some improvement;
ES9038Q2M basically roughly equals to 1/2 of ES9028Q2M or 1 ES9018K2M with some other improvement.
Please refer to the chart:
EssDacComparisonTable by Ian, on Flickr
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Ah.. you are correct. Maybe I ll pull the plug and order a ES9038Pro from TP. Expensive though
Regarding what I look for in sound is very comparable to Ian's. I didn't complete my sentence in my last post but I would add PRAT to the list. It is something that would make my foot tap.
I order twice ES9038Pro from TP. The output signal of the first board is incomplete, and I think that it is damaged so I buy another one. However, it was later suspected that because the 5V power supply was unstable, TP was wrongly to offer a 1.2V reference voltage, which caused damage to the firmware. It is very difficult for replacing the reference voltage on TP's power supply, and it takes a lot of time to get it done.
So if you buy the power supply from TP, be careful to check the reference voltage and other components first, do not rush to start soldering immediately. Once soldered it, it is difficult to remove them, and it is easy to destroy the board.
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ES9038Q2M DAC HAT vs ES9028Q2M DAC HAT vs ES9038Pro DAC (4): Conclusions
1. ES9038Pro is no doubt the monster flag ship. It would become an ultimate DAC if:
A. equipped with really nice power supply;
B. ultra-low phase noise true SYNC mode clock; and
C. Specially designed I/V stage (for such low output impedance).
So, I believe the OPPO Sonic DAC still has room for improve and modding.
2. ES9038K2M is a new generation ESS mobile DAC with some sound style improvement. But to match sound quality and performance with the name of its big brother, it needs to be designed in dual mono or multiple parallel configurations to improve NDR by reducing the output impedance. I will try to upgrade my ES9038Q2M DAC HAT design to dual mono configuration right now. And maybe, dual ES9018K2M too.
3. ES9028Q2M is really a super value DAC. It equals to half of ES9028Pro but at much lower price. The sound quality is also pretty decent. I’m happy with it so far.
4. I/V stage is the bridge between DAC and analog section. It’s another key section to decide the sound quality. Feedback, bandwidth and distortion are all significant considerations needed be taken. Passive I/V stages such as transformers are confirmed having good sound quality. Zero feedback I/V such as OPA861 and very high speed full balanced I/V such as OPA1632 are all worth to try.
Ian
1. ES9038Pro is no doubt the monster flag ship. It would become an ultimate DAC if:
A. equipped with really nice power supply;
B. ultra-low phase noise true SYNC mode clock; and
C. Specially designed I/V stage (for such low output impedance).
So, I believe the OPPO Sonic DAC still has room for improve and modding.
2. ES9038K2M is a new generation ESS mobile DAC with some sound style improvement. But to match sound quality and performance with the name of its big brother, it needs to be designed in dual mono or multiple parallel configurations to improve NDR by reducing the output impedance. I will try to upgrade my ES9038Q2M DAC HAT design to dual mono configuration right now. And maybe, dual ES9018K2M too.
3. ES9028Q2M is really a super value DAC. It equals to half of ES9028Pro but at much lower price. The sound quality is also pretty decent. I’m happy with it so far.
4. I/V stage is the bridge between DAC and analog section. It’s another key section to decide the sound quality. Feedback, bandwidth and distortion are all significant considerations needed be taken. Passive I/V stages such as transformers are confirmed having good sound quality. Zero feedback I/V such as OPA861 and very high speed full balanced I/V such as OPA1632 are all worth to try.
Ian
Hi Frank,
That's good idea. Twisted Pear has Buffalo-IIIsePro38 which is based on ES9038Pro. Maybe I should try it later. But it could be too big and consume too much power for a DAC HAT, I think.
Good weekend.
Ian
Hi Ian,
It could be powered separately. It may even be not necessarily be a DAC HAT.
Regards
Frank
Dual mono ES9038Q2M DAC HAT design
Dual mono version ES9038Q2M DAC HAT layout design was done.
Please see the attached PCB layout drawing for details (top side).
Two ES9038Q2M DAC chip will work in dual mono mode. One takes care of left channel, the other for the right channel.
Inside each DAC chip, two cores will be in parallel. The output impedance will be reduced to 387ohm which is not bad. DNR will be increased to 132dB from 129dB theoretically (in differential current mode ).
PCB order placed. I'll have the prototype very soon. I'm looking for some improvement.
Ian
Dual mono version ES9038Q2M DAC HAT layout design was done.
Please see the attached PCB layout drawing for details (top side).
Two ES9038Q2M DAC chip will work in dual mono mode. One takes care of left channel, the other for the right channel.
Inside each DAC chip, two cores will be in parallel. The output impedance will be reduced to 387ohm which is not bad. DNR will be increased to 132dB from 129dB theoretically (in differential current mode ).
PCB order placed. I'll have the prototype very soon. I'm looking for some improvement.
Ian
Attachments
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I am trying to be near perfect. I used two sets of power supply, PLACID HD BP 2.1 from TP, for Mercury I/V Stage from TP. I haven't finished yet, so I don't know if it's worth it.
It usually won't be better in dual mono for DAC chip, because in dual mono the two channel's jitter will appear at different times, causing the sound to become more confused. So you should not waste time to trying upgrade your ES9038Q2M DAC HAT design to dual mono.
In the DIY DAC, the most expensive should be audio-gd
NFB-7.77, Dual ES9038Pro, but it uses unnecessary in mono mono. audio-gd has the Specially designed I/V stage. I asked audio-gd for considering to design a single ES9038Pro, but the answer is no.
Hi ofswitched,
That's a good point.
In my dual mono DAC design, two DAC chip share same mclk, I don't think there is any chance having delay in between for different time . Because DAC internal logic are synchronized state machines. If they change state at same rising or falling edge of same clock, there will be no any asynchronous delay in between . But please correct me if I'm wrong.
If each dual mono DAC uses its own local clock, yes, you are right, that will be problem.
Good luck to your project.
Regards,
Ian