I continue to be very pleased with WTF and the ASUS J3345B motherboard.
I was going to get another one and find the price has jumped twenty dollars.
Replaced the HDFLEX 19 volts SMPS with a SALAS L ADAPTER and find it is worth the effort. The HDPLEX ATX module is a bargain and far more convenient than trying to make a three rails linear supply. I cannot imagine one loses much not going all of the way and then dealing with the booting challenges with DIY linear into the ATX socket.
After all there are plenty of DC-DC converters on the MB that we cannot do anything with.
I was very concerned with heat but find with it having nothing to power but the motherboard - all inputs and outputs are USB and they are powered externally, SATA is turned off in BIOS along with just about everything else, the heatsink will get lukewarm after playing files continuously for 24 hours. As the weather heats up I suspect i will be glad I used a large heatsink but nonetheless i am surprised how little power the board requires,
Must have something really good about its USB implementation. Running the DAC in synchronous mode and it sounds better than the asynchronous "helping hand" mode. Using external power for the USB that goes to the DAC is essential. Use the headers on the MB and solder power wires to an adapter with exposed contacts. For 2.o STARTECH makes a good one. Have some adapters (really cheap) on the way for 3.0. Only ones I could find with easy to get to power contacts.
I am using USB sticks instead of the SD cards which i thought were essential.
I had been intrigued by Pierce's observations elsewhere that storage makes a difference.
Of course it does - but one thinks: the file is placed into memory with WTF - how much is required of the storage medium? All I can figure is what happens to the file when placed into storage? I had been under the impression that the goodness of SD cards was that they did not mess around with the files once they were placed there.
Which makes one wonder if the convenience of large quantities of storage requires lots of manipulation and this can result in the files becoming damaged in some way?
I have no idea.
I know I was surprised that the MUSHKIN USB drive I bought to hear if I could hear a difference sounds very good. It is MLC and quite large at 256 gB. I have yet to try one of the SLC types for fear it might make a difference that would result in the spending of lots of money and time (since you would be constantly writing to the drive) along with wear and tear on the USB sockets which are not as rugged as we would like them to be.
Sorry for my meanderings. WTF is a perfectionist device that does not require spending silly money to get superior performance.
I would like for this thread to become more active with folks trying WTF and finding ways to get the best out of it.
I was going to get another one and find the price has jumped twenty dollars.
Replaced the HDFLEX 19 volts SMPS with a SALAS L ADAPTER and find it is worth the effort. The HDPLEX ATX module is a bargain and far more convenient than trying to make a three rails linear supply. I cannot imagine one loses much not going all of the way and then dealing with the booting challenges with DIY linear into the ATX socket.
After all there are plenty of DC-DC converters on the MB that we cannot do anything with.
I was very concerned with heat but find with it having nothing to power but the motherboard - all inputs and outputs are USB and they are powered externally, SATA is turned off in BIOS along with just about everything else, the heatsink will get lukewarm after playing files continuously for 24 hours. As the weather heats up I suspect i will be glad I used a large heatsink but nonetheless i am surprised how little power the board requires,
Must have something really good about its USB implementation. Running the DAC in synchronous mode and it sounds better than the asynchronous "helping hand" mode. Using external power for the USB that goes to the DAC is essential. Use the headers on the MB and solder power wires to an adapter with exposed contacts. For 2.o STARTECH makes a good one. Have some adapters (really cheap) on the way for 3.0. Only ones I could find with easy to get to power contacts.
I am using USB sticks instead of the SD cards which i thought were essential.
I had been intrigued by Pierce's observations elsewhere that storage makes a difference.
Of course it does - but one thinks: the file is placed into memory with WTF - how much is required of the storage medium? All I can figure is what happens to the file when placed into storage? I had been under the impression that the goodness of SD cards was that they did not mess around with the files once they were placed there.
Which makes one wonder if the convenience of large quantities of storage requires lots of manipulation and this can result in the files becoming damaged in some way?
I have no idea.
I know I was surprised that the MUSHKIN USB drive I bought to hear if I could hear a difference sounds very good. It is MLC and quite large at 256 gB. I have yet to try one of the SLC types for fear it might make a difference that would result in the spending of lots of money and time (since you would be constantly writing to the drive) along with wear and tear on the USB sockets which are not as rugged as we would like them to be.
Sorry for my meanderings. WTF is a perfectionist device that does not require spending silly money to get superior performance.
I would like for this thread to become more active with folks trying WTF and finding ways to get the best out of it.
Audio stored (or any data) on sdcards, usb sticks, solid state and spinning drives is the same. The data is stored as logic ones and zeros, essentially two states so the data is there or it isn't. Data written to the drives via a operating system will ensure the data is correctly written. The reciprocal applies when reading the data.
Wtfplay does the same thing, it reads the data from the drive and loads it into ram without any modification or errors unless there is physical problems with the drive in which case the operating system will flag the drive as being problematic or as unreadable.
Storage mediums cannot make any audible differences. The only device connected to wtfplay that will make a difference to the audio quality is the usbdac.
Wtfplay does the same thing, it reads the data from the drive and loads it into ram without any modification or errors unless there is physical problems with the drive in which case the operating system will flag the drive as being problematic or as unreadable.
Storage mediums cannot make any audible differences. The only device connected to wtfplay that will make a difference to the audio quality is the usbdac.
I hope you' re right.
I will try the various USB drives available and hope the cheaper ones are just as good.
I am wanting to try that SONY drive that will also fit in the SD adapters I have. I cannot see how fast reads or writes could make any difference here other than if you are constantly writing files.
What I think is the key is how much does the drive corrupt the data over time?
Could it be advantageous to reformat one's drives and rewrite the files occasionally? I know this made a difference back in the cMP days when we were using hard disks for storage.
Do all of the useful doodads that do the leveling and other such things; could they be doing something to the data that would not make any difference to a spreadsheet but makes a difference in audio? I think it is possible.
Could it be the larger the drive the more my imagined problem could arise? I hope not but it seems possible, though, as yet, I have heard nothing with the MUSHKIN 256gB that annoys me any more than the SD cards.
PS With the MB I am using there is an easily heard difference between using a SATA drive for music storage and turning off SATA and using USB for everything. Who knows if this is due to a good USB implementation and a bad SATA one - but how the data is delivered sure can make a difference in systems. I have never tried this with another motherboard - it could be SATA is superior on other MBs. Would not come as any surprise.
I will try the various USB drives available and hope the cheaper ones are just as good.
I am wanting to try that SONY drive that will also fit in the SD adapters I have. I cannot see how fast reads or writes could make any difference here other than if you are constantly writing files.
What I think is the key is how much does the drive corrupt the data over time?
Could it be advantageous to reformat one's drives and rewrite the files occasionally? I know this made a difference back in the cMP days when we were using hard disks for storage.
Do all of the useful doodads that do the leveling and other such things; could they be doing something to the data that would not make any difference to a spreadsheet but makes a difference in audio? I think it is possible.
Could it be the larger the drive the more my imagined problem could arise? I hope not but it seems possible, though, as yet, I have heard nothing with the MUSHKIN 256gB that annoys me any more than the SD cards.
PS With the MB I am using there is an easily heard difference between using a SATA drive for music storage and turning off SATA and using USB for everything. Who knows if this is due to a good USB implementation and a bad SATA one - but how the data is delivered sure can make a difference in systems. I have never tried this with another motherboard - it could be SATA is superior on other MBs. Would not come as any surprise.
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There is NO corruption over time. Indiglo already answered to this.
On a mechanical hard drive it could in theory be good to defrag sometimes as this would reduce the amount of work the drive has to do to read, and potentially inject noise in the power rails. I highly doubt anyone could hear this in a blind test though. For a flash drive, no.
Any change in the data would be much worse for a spreadsheet than an audio file. For an audio file a wrong bit would probably only become a minor glitch, but for a spreadsheet, or even worse for an executable, it would break it completely.
To the both of you I leave such unshakable belief to the Church.
Glad it is working out for you.
So how do you explain the demonstrable difference in sound quality between SATA music file and USB out to the DAC versus USB to both?
I am looking at data as a system. Who cares if it is unsullied if you cannot get it to where you want it to go without corruption.
Plus you are wrong that data is never corrupted. That is absurd.
But if it is working out for you stick with it as Tyler Durden would advise.
So what do either of you storage experts think of WTF and in what context are you using it? Do you have anything to help others get the most out of it?
Glad it is working out for you.
So how do you explain the demonstrable difference in sound quality between SATA music file and USB out to the DAC versus USB to both?
I am looking at data as a system. Who cares if it is unsullied if you cannot get it to where you want it to go without corruption.
Plus you are wrong that data is never corrupted. That is absurd.
But if it is working out for you stick with it as Tyler Durden would advise.
So what do either of you storage experts think of WTF and in what context are you using it? Do you have anything to help others get the most out of it?
How was the demonstrable difference demonstrated? Did someone claim to hear it or was there a properly conducted blind listening test with statistically confirming results of detecting a difference?
Data corruption does happen. If it happens when the drive is reading, the error is detected and the read operation is repeated. If it continues to fail it is flagged as a read error and reported to the operating system. If it instead happens in the RAM this means that the RAM or some other vital component is faulty. This will not be detected unless the system is using ECC memory (which you basically only find in servers). Instead the system will be very unstable with frequent kernel panics / bluescreens. What does NOT happen is silent corruption of your audio files on the storage medium. That idea is completely absurd, and if that could happen, then no computer would ever work.
If you don't agree then please explain how a computer could load and run an operating system if the executables loaded from storage to ram are likely to be corrupted.
As a side note, a bit in DRAM has only two states. It's stored as a charge in a capacitor. This capacitor will slowly discharge due to leakage, and because of that the contents is periodically refreshed to make sure it never switches state unintentionally.
I don't have any interest in WTF myself as it's way too limited. I just saw many things in this thread that show a lack of understanding of how computers really work, and I find it sad that people spend their time and money on "fixing" things that make no sense and can't matter.
Oh, well, this has turned into one of those threads?
I have noticed over the years that those who go on and on and on and on and on about double blind testing, which I think is akin to covering one's ears while assessing paintings, usually have the most rudimentary systems that i cannot imagine could differentiate between components anyway. Switching setups that destroy the integrity of the signal - what a laugh. Talk about satisfying one's expectations!
I assume they are happy with their systems and I am happy for them.
How many double blind tests have you taken part in? Did you find them to tell you anything of use? Did they confirm what you believed? I bet they did!
And to think I thought one Julf was enough! There are a whole litter of them out there!
Best of luck to all of you in the ideal world where everything works just like the advertising copy has promised.
There was no need to tell me you had no interest in WTF. I did not think any of you are/were using it. The DOUBLE BLIND TROLLS are always on the prowl looking for a chance to post this same stuff.
Too limited? What do you want it to do? Rub your back while you are listening? This is all one needs to know that you are not interested in the purest playback but are more interested in lots of convenience and pretty pictures on the monitor. Otherwise: a casual music listener and a gadget aficionado.
I have noticed over the years that those who go on and on and on and on and on about double blind testing, which I think is akin to covering one's ears while assessing paintings, usually have the most rudimentary systems that i cannot imagine could differentiate between components anyway. Switching setups that destroy the integrity of the signal - what a laugh. Talk about satisfying one's expectations!
I assume they are happy with their systems and I am happy for them.
How many double blind tests have you taken part in? Did you find them to tell you anything of use? Did they confirm what you believed? I bet they did!
And to think I thought one Julf was enough! There are a whole litter of them out there!
Best of luck to all of you in the ideal world where everything works just like the advertising copy has promised.
There was no need to tell me you had no interest in WTF. I did not think any of you are/were using it. The DOUBLE BLIND TROLLS are always on the prowl looking for a chance to post this same stuff.
Too limited? What do you want it to do? Rub your back while you are listening? This is all one needs to know that you are not interested in the purest playback but are more interested in lots of convenience and pretty pictures on the monitor. Otherwise: a casual music listener and a gadget aficionado.
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That is a completely absurd accusation and doesn't even deserve an answer. I will leave this thread alone since you obviously lack any knowledge of how things work and don't have any interest in learning.
I would say those who gravitate towards WTF are using it to enjoy music.
The DBers are more interested in graphics interfaces and pretending they are Samson while they listen to test tones or short segments of music.
Why do folks who do not even use the program find it necessary to come to the forum?
I think they have this overblown idea of saving the unwashed from those who disagree with their assumptions of what is correct. That strangest of creatures: the audio do-gooder. If they cannot hear a difference it does not exist. For ANYONE!
But they never try any of the things they tell us are fatuous. No surprise.
I suspect these people spend more time at audio forums than they do listening to music.
The DBers are more interested in graphics interfaces and pretending they are Samson while they listen to test tones or short segments of music.
Why do folks who do not even use the program find it necessary to come to the forum?
I think they have this overblown idea of saving the unwashed from those who disagree with their assumptions of what is correct. That strangest of creatures: the audio do-gooder. If they cannot hear a difference it does not exist. For ANYONE!
But they never try any of the things they tell us are fatuous. No surprise.
I suspect these people spend more time at audio forums than they do listening to music.
I am relaxed. I can assure you my pulse has not raised a beat.
Not as if this is the first time this stuff comes up.
If you want the thread infected with this I will stay away.
I am not telling anyone THE WAY since I do not know THE WAY. Relaying my experience for anyone to try if they desire. If they think it is ridiculous they can certainly say they think it is ridiculous. Better still if they let it be known they never tried it so one can put the comment in perspective.
Some questions just cannot be asked, I guess. 1's and 0's are always 1's and 0's in a perfect world.
Unfortunately the world I am stuck in is not perfect and that is where my reports come from.
Maybe next life I get into the perfect world. Can't wait.
Not as if this is the first time this stuff comes up.
If you want the thread infected with this I will stay away.
I am not telling anyone THE WAY since I do not know THE WAY. Relaying my experience for anyone to try if they desire. If they think it is ridiculous they can certainly say they think it is ridiculous. Better still if they let it be known they never tried it so one can put the comment in perspective.
Some questions just cannot be asked, I guess. 1's and 0's are always 1's and 0's in a perfect world.
Unfortunately the world I am stuck in is not perfect and that is where my reports come from.
Maybe next life I get into the perfect world. Can't wait.
Sorry I got distracted. The reason I read this thread was because I was curious about the software side of things. Unfortunately it's closed source (why?) so here is nothing for me to see. One point though, I take it you are using LibFLAC? That's fine to use in closed source, but you need to mention it. From the documentation:
About the 0's and 1's, we are certainly not living in a perfect world and sometimes they are more than just 0's and 1's. But sometimes they aren't. It depends on many things. But if you understand how things work you can sometimes identify these cases directly without wasting time on investigating.
About the 0's and 1's, we are certainly not living in a perfect world and sometimes they are more than just 0's and 1's. But sometimes they aren't. It depends on many things. But if you understand how things work you can sometimes identify these cases directly without wasting time on investigating.