hi there..first, i'm sorry if i posted this on the wrong forum since i don't really know where should i ask this 
as the title, i wanted to build a NAS.i actually ever did this but i only used 1 drive and using FreeNAS at that time
now i want to build a bigger one let's say 2*4TB and going more maybe until 12*4TBs
i have a PC, not very old actually..it uses an Athlon II X2 240, DFI LP BI 785G-M35 which i was changed some of the caps using some cerafines and silmics II , and an AcBel E2 470 which i also re-capped using Panasonic FCs, Cerafines, and other low ESR caps which i forgot what is it..
question is, is it good to use this PC as NAS?.i mean..is it reliable?..
what OS should i use to makes the NAS settings easier?
i'm planning to use more than 4 drives later but this mobo has only 6 port which 1 should be used for system disk and remains 5..is it possible to just add a RAID card to expand the capacity?..
i also wanted to know what system i should use?.RAID5, JBOD, RAID10?..
and then, is it possible to move the RAID/JBOD array if someday my PC died?
big thanks!
-add-
for music, would the network adds jitters to my music streams?
as the title, i wanted to build a NAS.i actually ever did this but i only used 1 drive and using FreeNAS at that time
now i want to build a bigger one let's say 2*4TB and going more maybe until 12*4TBs
i have a PC, not very old actually..it uses an Athlon II X2 240, DFI LP BI 785G-M35 which i was changed some of the caps using some cerafines and silmics II
, and an AcBel E2 470 which i also re-capped using Panasonic FCs, Cerafines, and other low ESR caps which i forgot what is it..question is, is it good to use this PC as NAS?.i mean..is it reliable?..
what OS should i use to makes the NAS settings easier?
i'm planning to use more than 4 drives later but this mobo has only 6 port which 1 should be used for system disk and remains 5..is it possible to just add a RAID card to expand the capacity?..
i also wanted to know what system i should use?.RAID5, JBOD, RAID10?..
and then, is it possible to move the RAID/JBOD array if someday my PC died?
big thanks!
-add-
for music, would the network adds jitters to my music streams?
Let's not get too mixed up, here.
ZFS is a file system. Pioneered by Sun/Solaris. You can install Solaris X86 on your system and use ZFS. One of the very nice things about ZFS is that it supports "snapshots" for data backup. They're near instant.
On the other question, "what if a drive fails?". No file system is immune from disk failure. That's why we use RAID. "Redundant Array of Inexpensive Drives". Some substitute "Independent".
RAID level 0 has no redundancy, and will loose all data on a disk failure.
RAID level 1 is disk mirroring. You need twice as many disks, and if one fails, you can replace it and regenerate what was on the dead one.
other common levels include RAID 4, where you have 1 extra driver for every 4, and any one disk failure can be rebuilt...
Your motherboard may be able to handle RAID. Solaris ZFS may also be able to create such arrays.
(Yeah, I used to be a system admin, and I used to work at Sun...)
ZFS is a file system. Pioneered by Sun/Solaris. You can install Solaris X86 on your system and use ZFS. One of the very nice things about ZFS is that it supports "snapshots" for data backup. They're near instant.
On the other question, "what if a drive fails?". No file system is immune from disk failure. That's why we use RAID. "Redundant Array of Inexpensive Drives". Some substitute "Independent".
RAID level 0 has no redundancy, and will loose all data on a disk failure.
RAID level 1 is disk mirroring. You need twice as many disks, and if one fails, you can replace it and regenerate what was on the dead one.
other common levels include RAID 4, where you have 1 extra driver for every 4, and any one disk failure can be rebuilt...
Your motherboard may be able to handle RAID. Solaris ZFS may also be able to create such arrays.
(Yeah, I used to be a system admin, and I used to work at Sun...)
Oh, another nice thing about Solaris. I have my mail server (and NAS) on an old AMD pc running Solaris 10. Last year, the motherboard failed. Remembering how Windows doesn't like new hardware, I was somewhat fearful I'd loose years of e-mail archives, but. . .
New motherboard. Plugged in the same 4 disks, and it came up without any issue at all. Running 24x7 since.
New motherboard. Plugged in the same 4 disks, and it came up without any issue at all. Running 24x7 since.
ZFS includes redundancy options that work similar to RAID-5 and RAID-6 (you can have as much or as little redundancy as you want, including multiple hot spares), and will protect you from disc failures the same as RAID. ZFS runs happily under linux so you don't need Solaris.
Additionally:
- you can grow a zpool, i.e. add discs to your volume
- it does end-to-end per-block checksums, so will save you from silent bitrot, bad blocks and controller CRC errors where RAID cannot
In theory btrfs has better reliability options than ZFS but it is nowhere near mature enough for serious use yet.
Some references:
- Atomic COWs
- RAID-Z howtos
And remember, no RAID or redundant filesystem is a backup. RAIDs have saved my bacon from failed discs twice in the last decade, but there is absolutely no substitute for an off-site copy.
Edit: with regard to the OP's last question about portability, it's a good one. If you run open-source software RAID of some variety (MD or ZFS) then your data is definitely portable: you can slap all the discs in USB cases and recover the RAID volume from an entirely different PC if you like, or just build a fresh box and put them in. If you use a physical RAID controller, you'd better have the option of buying a fresh controller for when yours dies, because it's a single point of failure. Never use a motherboard RAID controller, because in 5-10 years you won't be able to replace it with an identical chip and your data will probably be lost.
If RAID-Z is just too complicated for you to setup, then your best options are, in descending order:
- software RAID in linux using MD, running in RAID-6 mode (more redundancy, costs more)
- software RAID using MD, running in RAID-5 mode (usually-enough redundancy, absolute minimum cost); this is my current system
- a common (something you can find 20 copies of on eBay and therefore easily replaceable) hardware RAID controller in RAID-5 or RAID-6 mode
- unRAID (maybe. Not sure I trust it much, it's basically RAID-4 but I think at a file instead of block level)
- commercial NAS-in-a-box with RAID-5 option ($$$)
Additionally:
- you can grow a zpool, i.e. add discs to your volume
- it does end-to-end per-block checksums, so will save you from silent bitrot, bad blocks and controller CRC errors where RAID cannot
In theory btrfs has better reliability options than ZFS but it is nowhere near mature enough for serious use yet.
Some references:
- Atomic COWs
- RAID-Z howtos
And remember, no RAID or redundant filesystem is a backup. RAIDs have saved my bacon from failed discs twice in the last decade, but there is absolutely no substitute for an off-site copy.
Edit: with regard to the OP's last question about portability, it's a good one. If you run open-source software RAID of some variety (MD or ZFS) then your data is definitely portable: you can slap all the discs in USB cases and recover the RAID volume from an entirely different PC if you like, or just build a fresh box and put them in. If you use a physical RAID controller, you'd better have the option of buying a fresh controller for when yours dies, because it's a single point of failure. Never use a motherboard RAID controller, because in 5-10 years you won't be able to replace it with an identical chip and your data will probably be lost.
If RAID-Z is just too complicated for you to setup, then your best options are, in descending order:
- software RAID in linux using MD, running in RAID-6 mode (more redundancy, costs more)
- software RAID using MD, running in RAID-5 mode (usually-enough redundancy, absolute minimum cost); this is my current system
- a common (something you can find 20 copies of on eBay and therefore easily replaceable) hardware RAID controller in RAID-5 or RAID-6 mode
- unRAID (maybe. Not sure I trust it much, it's basically RAID-4 but I think at a file instead of block level)
- commercial NAS-in-a-box with RAID-5 option ($$$)
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For ZFS you need some memory depending of ZFS level and capacity, you cand add a SSD to increase performance.
The easiest way is to use FreeNAS Project - Open Source Storage - FreeNAS Project Tryig reading some of the info from site regarding zfs and post your question on their forum.
Hardware Recommendations - Freenas
If you add the possibility to run virtual machines (hosting services like diferent flavors of dnla server and other services of SOs)based on theirs templates from my point of view is a winner.
I'm running one freenas server with zfs RAIDZ3 6 HDDs x 3 TB. When you are planning which zfs lvl you can search for the optimal number of hdds.
and it is totally free.
The easiest way is to use FreeNAS Project - Open Source Storage - FreeNAS Project Tryig reading some of the info from site regarding zfs and post your question on their forum.
Hardware Recommendations - Freenas
If you add the possibility to run virtual machines (hosting services like diferent flavors of dnla server and other services of SOs)based on theirs templates from my point of view is a winner.
I'm running one freenas server with zfs RAIDZ3 6 HDDs x 3 TB. When you are planning which zfs lvl you can search for the optimal number of hdds.
and it is totally free.
thanks all for the replies!.i need time to understand
phofman : i dont really know how to backup them since it should be pain in @$$ if i should buy 80TB to have 40TBs w/ backups
you can have a 2 lvl aproach:
use snapshot functionality of zfs on the same machine (for accidentally deleted files) but if the machine/hdds dies it is probable to lost all data
off site backup for really important data
(eg: family digital pictures)or external hdds
with zfs don't forget to scrub data once in a while, and enable hdd smamt tests
noted.
i forgot about S.M.A.R.T
how often should i run scrub and SMART tests?..every month?..i dont bother to check every weeks/months..at least not everyday
for my setup i scheduled the scrub once 30 days, it's seems fair enough.
try freenas because they have a nice control interface, plenty of howto's and an active community.
i dont really know how to backup them since it should be pain in @$$ if i should buy 80TB to have 40TBs w/ backups
That is exactly why I am asking. Your backup strategy should be integral part of your NAS solution, from the beginning. The raid functionality (be it SW/HW/ZFS/BTRFS based) is not by any means an alternative to offline backup. A single incorrect command will ruin your data in a matter of seconds and your raid will happily co-operate (as it should
)I am afraid you should budget for the extra harddrives for your offline backup. They are not so expensive. You certainly do not need 40TB NAS from the beginning. Just pick a solution you can extend easily (and inexpensively), both the main storage and backups.
I do not have any experience with ZFS as I am a linux guy and ZFS is still non-native on linux. I would not recommend BTRFS either as it is still a very new technology, developing/changing fast, not recommended for production use.
Just my choice would be an array (most likely raid6) based on linux SW raid.
Converting RAID5 to RAID6 and other shape changing in md/raid
https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Growing
Linux mdadm software RAID 6 - does it support bit corruption recovery? - Server Fault
On top of that I would place raid1 mirror with write-intent bitmap enabled, created in degraded mode at first (with the second component missing).
One or several external esata docking stations (e.g. All in One! USB 2.0 2.5"/3.5" SATA HDD Docking Station e SATA OTB Car Reader with Retail Package,Free Shipping+Drop Shipping-in HDD Enclosure from Electronics on Aliexpress.com ), hooked to esata bracket, hooked to internal sata ports or an addon PCIe sata/esata controller with multiple ports. The external drives for storage would be joined in raid0 striping and on regular basis the resultant array synchronized with the main online mirror as the missing raid1 component. By using the write-intent bitmap you get down to reasonable time for synchronization ever for large arrays (only changed parts get synchronized).
Or you can use rsync instead of the raid mirror.
In any case I would use a well tested and years proven technology you will be able to upgrade/extend continuously. We have our backup array filesystem been grown many times in the last 10 years, used the backup as bases of an upgraded backup server several times in the past, it just works.
But of course it requires a bit of linux skills.
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okay..thanks guys!.
anyway, is there any simple backup method instead of copy/clone drive every..let's say 1 month?.
i searched about the HDD, it seems like WD Red has a good spec for a NAS.(they rated about 100 years MTBF if i calculate it right)
i might only backup the important data such as musics and photos..videos are not very important to me (they just a concert / LiveOnDemand / MVs videos)
i used freeNAS before.but somehow they corrupted pretty bad .maybe my PC wasn't stable enough?..if my PC is the main problem it means i should search for a good board
anyway, is there any simple backup method instead of copy/clone drive every..let's say 1 month?.
i searched about the HDD, it seems like WD Red has a good spec for a NAS.(they rated about 100 years MTBF if i calculate it right
)i might only backup the important data such as musics and photos..videos are not very important to me (they just a concert / LiveOnDemand / MVs videos
)i used freeNAS before.but somehow they corrupted pretty bad
.maybe my PC wasn't stable enough?..if my PC is the main problem it means i should search for a good board hi Ishru,
What do you really need ?
1 - security
2 - space
AND... 3- a good "buffer" on your streamer
What you don't need : performance, exit raid 10 for the price and off course raid 0 for the space (if one break you loose all)
1 with 2 : you can go to Raid 1 (mirrored) or raid 5 (easier to grow with space)
The problem with Raid : what do you do if you loose all : fire, stolen PC, water...
Raid is easy but no completly secure without Geo-Cluster (copy maid over Internet on a different place). And don't forget than without a raid controler with battery and batteries for your pc/server even a raid one can break and copy error to the second disc... Super you can loose the two discs ... and the raid ( You need minimum 3 disks and an automatic spare with an extra + 1 hard disk (so in all : 4 disks) to avoid realy a problem) . Here batteries for raid controller and pc can't be avoid as well if zero risk is needed !
I will go for a domestic network with multiple drivers managed by smartphones or TV (DNLA?) or off course with the pc themselves: 4 T0 for films, 2 or 4 T0 for musics, another for pictures and so on.... sometimes (every month you do a job of backup on big 3,5 factor form hard disk and you put it aware from your home... it's terrible to loose the pictures of the family or the long time to copy the CD into the drives...). another advantage if you have children you can go with LDAP and profiles to filter the access...
It's not important if you have many Discs and folders if it's easy to stream them by remote controls : well DNLA, domestic network with windows or Linux.
DNLA is a most if your streamer support it and if pc is just the datacenter.
Just 2 cents, for myself I Use a Raid 1 synology and make backup stored elsewhere as I just write. Use DNLA and SqueezeBox and movie center... all from the Synology. Low electricity consumption, the pc can be switched off ! But sure I don't need 40 To (don't care with the high resolution movies....)... Well for you... maybe raid 5 or multiple stand alone 4 To hard disk with domestical network via RJ45 + Wifi will gave you : space+ security+ easy way to manage datas...
What do you really need ?
1 - security
2 - space
AND... 3- a good "buffer" on your streamer
What you don't need : performance, exit raid 10 for the price and off course raid 0 for the space (if one break you loose all)
1 with 2 : you can go to Raid 1 (mirrored) or raid 5 (easier to grow with space)
The problem with Raid : what do you do if you loose all : fire, stolen PC, water...
Raid is easy but no completly secure without Geo-Cluster (copy maid over Internet on a different place). And don't forget than without a raid controler with battery and batteries for your pc/server even a raid one can break and copy error to the second disc... Super you can loose the two discs
... and the raid ( You need minimum 3 disks and an automatic spare with an extra + 1 hard disk (so in all : 4 disks) to avoid realy a problem) . Here batteries for raid controller and pc can't be avoid as well if zero risk is needed !I will go for a domestic network with multiple drivers managed by smartphones or TV (DNLA?) or off course with the pc themselves: 4 T0 for films, 2 or 4 T0 for musics, another for pictures and so on.... sometimes (every month you do a job of backup on big 3,5 factor form hard disk and you put it aware from your home... it's terrible to loose the pictures of the family or the long time to copy the CD into the drives...). another advantage if you have children you can go with LDAP and profiles to filter the access...
It's not important if you have many Discs and folders if it's easy to stream them by remote controls : well DNLA, domestic network with windows or Linux.
DNLA is a most if your streamer support it and if pc is just the datacenter.
Just 2 cents, for myself I Use a Raid 1 synology and make backup stored elsewhere as I just write. Use DNLA and SqueezeBox and movie center... all from the Synology. Low electricity consumption, the pc can be switched off ! But sure I don't need 40 To (don't care with the high resolution movies....)... Well for you... maybe raid 5 or multiple stand alone 4 To hard disk with domestical network via RJ45 + Wifi will gave you : space+ security+ easy way to manage datas...
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rsync. You can do it from your main array to a backup drive plugged into USB, or you can do it over a network if you have enough bandwidth. If you're only backing up content that you create, you probably have enough bandwidth in your average DSL connection to continuously backup. There are online providers of storage that you can rsync to.
i searched about the HDD, it seems like WD Red has a good spec for a NAS.(they rated about 100 years MTBF if i calculate it right
And do you really believe such a number? You would have to have the drives running in perfect conditions (cool, zero vibration) and then hope like hell, because there's no way they've tested that number. But who cares? The whole point of RAID-like stuff is to be resilient to the odd drive failure.
PS if the drives are expected to fail every ~100 years, you will expect to see 1 drive fail in a 5-disc array before 20 years. As you add more drives, the failures obviously come more often. I'm currently running at about 1 failure per 4 years using about 6 consumer discs. And that's fine.
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Ishiru,
If you make a copy over Internet which is the only safe method if you don't want put a copy maid by hand each month elsewhere from your home :
If your backup is on line in another house of your family : start from 2 exact copies. And of course after the automatic backup job will be maid with the incremental method : what is saved on B area is what have changed on A area : (the new files created after the last backup job). As said Rsync manage that if you stay with 2 linuxed pc at "each side" of your Internet connexion.
Cloud services maybe expensive and the cheapest not safe in time...
I believe it's less expensive and easier (but if Linux and Internet is easy and not a problem for you or no problem with free time to learn it, of course here stay with Linux devices) to have 2 low cost devices as Synology or over ones in each geographical aera but connected over Internet. they managed : enrypted tunels, jobs backup, data base management /SMART and many others already implemented usefulls features.
The little problem is 40 Tera !
Why don't have a soft manual politic of backup ? No raid and no Internet ?
- For the little and important files : datas, pictures, music : each month you save your stand alone disk with a soft (you launch the job the night and you leave your home the morning after with your copy which stay elswhere).
- For heavy weighted movies which are on differents hard disk: once a year.
no headaches, save money (no expensives raid and raid controllers and heavy powwersupply with batteries). Multiple disc in an insurance than you son't loose all the datas... which is not the case of a breaked raid... how many incidents I saw with bad management of recovry disastry after breaked Raid... error is human !
Anyway you must avoid raids or simple backup jobs which stay only at home... as already said before "how do you backup your Raid ?"
Sumpai lupa lagi
If you make a copy over Internet which is the only safe method if you don't want put a copy maid by hand each month elsewhere from your home :
If your backup is on line in another house of your family : start from 2 exact copies. And of course after the automatic backup job will be maid with the incremental method : what is saved on B area is what have changed on A area : (the new files created after the last backup job). As said Rsync manage that if you stay with 2 linuxed pc at "each side" of your Internet connexion.
Cloud services maybe expensive and the cheapest not safe in time...
I believe it's less expensive and easier (but if Linux and Internet is easy and not a problem for you or no problem with free time to learn it, of course here stay with Linux devices) to have 2 low cost devices as Synology or over ones in each geographical aera but connected over Internet. they managed : enrypted tunels, jobs backup, data base management /SMART and many others already implemented usefulls features.
The little problem is 40 Tera !
Why don't have a soft manual politic of backup ? No raid and no Internet ?
- For the little and important files : datas, pictures, music : each month you save your stand alone disk with a soft (you launch the job the night and you leave your home the morning after with your copy which stay elswhere).
- For heavy weighted movies which are on differents hard disk: once a year.
no headaches, save money (no expensives raid and raid controllers and heavy powwersupply with batteries). Multiple disc in an insurance than you son't loose all the datas... which is not the case of a breaked raid... how many incidents I saw with bad management of recovry disastry after breaked Raid... error is human !
Anyway you must avoid raids or simple backup jobs which stay only at home... as already said before "how do you backup your Raid ?"
Sumpai lupa lagi
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