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Old 24th June 2013, 01:45 PM   #11
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundcheck View Post
People having problems to play even native Hirez !?!?

Common folks. It's a toy.
No wonder if the USB driver/firmware (closed-source?) was broken. Two posters in this thread report the USB performance being OK now.
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Old 24th June 2013, 02:06 PM   #12
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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it still has only the one bus for USB, ethernet, wifi, all peripherals, everything afaik. the beaglebone black would have been a much better choice for basing this on.
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Old 24th June 2013, 02:23 PM   #13
Nikitas is offline Nikitas  Greece
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Originally Posted by qusp View Post
it still has only the one bus for USB, ethernet, wifi, all peripherals, everything afaik. the beaglebone black would have been a much better choice for basing this on.

Indeed, that's the root of Pi's problem.
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Old 24th June 2013, 03:12 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Odysseas View Post
Tried it, it's worthless for this kind of applications.

"some of our users compared it with a 20k euros CD player"

That's ridiculous! Price and comparison.
Hi odysseas, got your point. Comparing is always related to subjective perceptions, so they should be taken not that seriously. But the user that stated this is a respectable hi-fi dealer, so in this case I took this sentence a little more seriously, lol. The way this sentence should be read, IMO, is that optimization makes wonders, and you can have a really good sound system not only with cash efforts. Obviously the big part of sound quality is due to the DAC, the Pi's task ends at delivering the most accurate bit stream to the DAC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseas View Post
buzz, hum, pops, unexpected crashes, network problems, huge amount of time to set up, difficulty to control basic functions, very bad audio reproduction compared to a sony network player that costs 200 euros.
That's the point! I do absolutely agree with you. We started to develop RaspyFi because the native software environment just wasn't up to the task with music playback. It took me 2 days when my Pi arrived to just install mpd... I mean, 2 days when all you have to do is apt-get install something?
Then, with the notorious USB problems playing at decent bitrates\depth was a mirage.
I thought that the hardware was more than enough (someone said routers?) to play hi-res files. What we did with RaspyFi is optimize the software enviromnment tailoring it to the Pi's hardware (which is a great advantage, since all Pi's are the same and you have predictable results working only on a hardware platform).
So, we think we filled this gap. Now you can have pretty good quality-wise performance without getting mad to configure everything.
This has lot of advantages than a closed solution, you get Ramplay as well, you get community-driven updates and lot of extra functionalities.
And all of this, also for the average user, not only for command line masters.
Then, I may be wrong. But I'm not sure that a 200$ bluray player could overperform last RaspyFi version.


Quote:
Originally Posted by soundcheck View Post
People having problems to play even native Hirez !?!?

Common folks. It's a toy.


If you look at e.g. Wandboard or Minix NEO X5 or newer models you'll get decent
mini computers at around 100$.

Cheers
Here you go. The Pi is a toy, and if we achieved such results with it, imagine what can be done with recent embedded pcs. That's why we're porting RaspyFi to other embeddeds, the most suitable ones for audio reproduction obviously.

What we achieved right now is a software system which was obtained with lot of trial and errors, imagine that to find the right NAS mounting method we tested lot and lot of variables.
But, folks, there are always better solutions. I just wanted to share this thoughts with you to try to improve the distro, to discuss about kernel latencies, dma drivers and so on. If getting your wallet out is the way you listen, RaspyFi isn't for you. Period.
If you want to learn something about digital music playback, and wanna have something that does the job pretty well without hassles, then RaspyFi is gonna excite you.
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Old 24th June 2013, 03:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
it still has only the one bus for USB, ethernet, wifi, all peripherals, everything afaik. the beaglebone black would have been a much better choice for basing this on.
Here you are! We're about to port RaspyFi on this as well as other embeddeds!
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Old 25th June 2013, 08:06 AM   #16
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My pi is lashed up feeding I2S to a reclocked TDA1541A, and it sounds great! I can't see how it could sound much different to if you lifted the clock, DAC, and IV and connected it to the decoder output of a CD player.
I2S is now quite mature on the pi. There's a driver for it now (in a branched kernel at the moment), and it seems to work well.
Don't write this toy off just yet.
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Old 25th June 2013, 09:43 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundcheck View Post
Raspberry PIs ... A nice toy. That's what it's meant for.
Describing the “Raspberry PI” as a toy is condescending and dismissive. This low cost mini-computer was primarily developed as an educational tool and judging by the number of sales, the interest generated and network of users it has been successful way beyond the hopes of the Raspberry Foundation. The fact that it found its way into the hands of many hobbyists who pushed the hardware to its limits was a good thing. The Raspberry Foundation has responded to its detractors and has developed the firmware/software in order to get better performance out the PI.

It may be a little early to say that the PI's USB problems are fixed, but there's enough anecdotal evidence to suggest there's been a significant improvement for those using the device in audio applications.

Of course, if you pay more you can get better hardware. It's no surprise that Soundcheck mentions the Wandaboard as this is the chosen hardware of the “community squeeze” project. Whether this board remains in production, and whether John Swenson's matching dedicated audio board ever goes on sale, only time will tell.

For the here and now the “raspberry pi” is well documented and supported, and as along as you are aware of its limitations can be used as an audio server quite successfully. It has been adopted by the piCorePlayer project, and I see Soundcheck has not posted on that thread at the slimdevices forum to dismiss the raspberry pi out of hand. Nor has he dismissed the efforts of the Squeezeplug project.

There's more than a little irony in someone like Soundcheck, who has long promoted his own ideas about how to get the best audio performance out the Squeezebox Touch which has I believe just a 600Mhz ARMv6 Processor with limited memory, offering no encouragement at all to projects like Raspyfi.

I'm grateful for the efforts of RaspyFi, and others, to prove the doubters wrong.
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Old 25th June 2013, 09:45 AM   #18
Nikitas is offline Nikitas  Greece
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mikelangeloz, I re-read my posts and I realize that my tone could be misunderstood.

First of all I have to say I admire your work, the effort you have put into this must be tremendous.

My "anger" isn't towards you, and I definitely I am not snobbing, I am though, towards some other folks, who, when the Pi came out, they were like "OMG,OMG AWESOME, most amazing gadget, you can do anything, router, file server, music streamer, video streamer". (see adafruit, hackaday, make etc etc.....). Well it's not. It has fundamental problems hardware and software-wise that need to be solved by the foundation before people start calling it like that. And I'm talking from experience.

That said, if someone has the will/skills to get involved and make it better, he will have my applaud, but we have to be clear it needs a lot of effort and time. Like what you said, that it took you 2 days to install mpd. It took me one day to boot it after an update.
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Old 25th June 2013, 12:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eudyptes View Post
There's more than a little irony in someone like Soundcheck, who has long promoted his own ideas about how to get the best audio performance out the Squeezebox Touch which has I believe just a 600Mhz ARMv6 Processor with limited memory, offering no encouragement at all to projects like Raspyfi.
The Touch was made for audio purposes. A single purpose device.
It performed rather well. (And even better with some tweaking)

Most embedded boards are general purpose boards. If they come with audio ports these are usually poorly implemented. Even the peripheral stacks USB/ethernet etc are lower speced then you'd find them on high quality motherboards.
Most of these boards are work-in-progress and come with driver issues.
Do get driver issues under control is PITA. You might wait forever until somebody fixes the flaws.
Usually you need another external audio device/interface.

There is no irony. I do have an idea about general flaws associated to these type of devices. I currently just don't see the potential.

So please. Don't mix things up here.


I can tell you currently I 'd neither go for the Wandboard, nor for the PI, nor for my Minix NEO X5 ( I have a device at home for toying) , since I think that they don't even got the basics right - at least for my purposes.

(I hooked up my old SB Duet recently to avoid my Minix NEO X5 with Android and squeezeplayer.)

People who'd like to go for quality audio should ask, what HW is giving the best starting point for quality audio. I doubt that's the PI is the first choice here. Linux obviously can be considered a perfect base as long as drivers exist.



Cheers
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Old 25th June 2013, 01:44 PM   #20
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Mikelangeloz, who started this thread, was talking about trying to get “the best audio quality possible out of the Raspberry PI”, not about picking the best possible hw.

Your response is basically, forget the “raspberry pi” it is rubbish. Not only that, but you think the efforts of those involved in the “community squeeze” project must also be a waste of time as these devices “don't even got the basics right”. If you have an alternative in mind, I'm sure the members of the “community squeeze” project would be glad to hear from you.

Of course when you bring your own “perfect” player to the market, I'm sure we'll all be happy to listen to it. And you will have combined your knowledge of electrical/electronic and audio engineering with the software skills to configure, patch, compile and maintain any necessary Linux kernel and other software packages in the same way the members of the “community squeeze” project are attempting.

In the mean time, us lesser mortals will use what ever hardware we think is suited to our needs and be interested in getting the best out of it.

Irony? I doubt you'd recognise it if it got up and slapped you in the face.
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