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Old 16th March 2012, 03:36 PM   #41
erin is offline erin  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveh49 View Post
How long had you been listening to the normal-mode rips before noticing their shortcomings?
I didn't notice any shortcomings from normal mode until trying safemode rips.
 
Old 16th March 2012, 03:37 PM   #42
erin is offline erin  Australia
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
erin, if I ripped a CD to five files using "normal" mode, then five files using safe mode, could you sort one from the other?
Sorry I don't quite understand what you are asking?

Can you elaborate?
 
Old 16th March 2012, 03:40 PM   #43
BFNY is offline BFNY  United States
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I have worked for a long time with systems streaming data in real time to hard drives. There can be large differences in how data is stored on disk - first where on the disk.
-Inner or outer part of platter - disks rotate at a constant speed, so data rates, both read and write, are fastest on the largest diameter sectors.
- Interleave rate - usually set at format, makes a difference in performance.
- File fragmentation - almost always happens, unless special means are used to prevent it.

I believe you can reduce/eliminate fragmentation by copying the audio files from one drive to another, then back again. It may be interesting to try that in this case. Also there are some very sophisticated defrag products out there - for instance Disktrix Inc - The Home Of UltimateDefrag
Who also has a free version UltimateDefrag - The Defragger For Power Users - Trial

These products have an option to let you decide where to put files, i.e. on the outer tracks of your disk.
Not saying that is what's going on here, but it may be.
 
Old 16th March 2012, 03:42 PM   #44
erin is offline erin  Australia
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Good information. Thank you.

Do you know more about how data is written to a HDD? Does wow and flutter affect the speed the platter is spinning like an analog tape or LP? Could this alter the space between individual bits when the data is written? Could this affect the playback?

Last edited by erin; 16th March 2012 at 03:59 PM.
 
Old 16th March 2012, 04:05 PM   #45
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erin View Post
Sorry I don't quite understand what you are asking?

Can you elaborate?

I hand you ten files of the same musical selection. Five were ripped with computer in safe mode, five were ripped with computer in "normal" mode. They are numbered, say, 1 to 10. You listen to them using whatever you used to determine "obvious" differences. You sort the files, e.g., you say "3, 5, 7, 9, and 10 are normal, 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8 are safe mode."
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Old 16th March 2012, 04:08 PM   #46
erin is offline erin  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
I hand you ten files of the same musical selection. Five were ripped with computer in safe mode, five were ripped with computer in "normal" mode. They are numbered, say, 1 to 10. You listen to them using whatever you used to determine "obvious" differences. You sort the files, e.g., you say "3, 5, 7, 9, and 10 are normal, 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8 are safe mode."
Cool no worries. download dropbox or something similar, and send me the link in a PM and I'll download and test them.
Actually, if its OK with you, I'd prefer one file as the safemode and one as normal. Ten seems excessive to me. Is there any reason for more than one song to be compared?

But really I'd prefer you to listen for yourself, and report your findings, because I have already reported my findings, now I'd like to see if you or anyone else can hear a difference.

Last edited by erin; 16th March 2012 at 04:16 PM.
 
Old 16th March 2012, 04:22 PM   #47
palmito is offline palmito  United States
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If you were to read both files form a shared drive, wouldn't the network protrocol iron out any problem with the rip on the physical media? If the difference is not in the data itself, and it does not seem to be since the two files are bit for bit the same, then the differences in their physical storage would tend to even out by the process of reading the remote drive, packaging the data into tcp/ip packets, sending them, receiving them and having to assemble them to generate the correct order of packets and then feeding the data to the sound streaming software that is requesting the data read. If the file sharing protocol caches data at either end, then this would tend to iron the differences even more. Just wandering if the two files still sound different when both are read by the streaming software from a shared network drive as opposed to a usb stick or local harddisk (which is accessed not by a networking protocol but is read by the local computer's disk controller hardware from physica media).
 
Old 16th March 2012, 04:43 PM   #48
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All other things being equal (fragmentation, location on the HDD, playback software/environment), if the checksums match, the files are the same. That's practically irrefutable.

I would have to agree with others here, that if you are indeed hearing a difference, it must be fragmentation, location on the HDD, playback software/environment that are causing the aberrations.
 
Old 16th March 2012, 04:45 PM   #49
BFNY is offline BFNY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erin View Post
Good information. Thank you.

Does wow and flutter affect the speed the platter is spinning like an analog tape or LP? Could this alter the space between individual bits when the data is written? Could this affect the playback?
No. BTW, typical streaming data read and write rates for single hard drives are in the ballpark 15-30MB/s range. Audio wave files need about 1/10 of that. In general, data goes from the hard drive, to memory, to the processor, then out to the sound card / network whatever (I use a squeezebox).

In general, the PC memory buffers any effects from the hard drive. The place for concern is going from the processor to the sound card, but still, in most cases the sound card also memory buffers and does the final clocking onboard to the DAC (exceptions maybe for certain USB cards).
 
Old 16th March 2012, 04:45 PM   #50
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erin View Post
Ten seems excessive to me. Is there any reason for more than one song to be compared?
It'll be one song (your choice, if it's one I have). If it's just one of each, random guessing will get the right answer half the time. With a ten-item sort, if you do it correctly, that will shut up the skeptics.
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