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Old 15th December 2011, 04:41 PM   #31
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Phofman, what do you mean, what will I learn, that there is some magic in digital signal transmission, who is going to teach it me the ghosts of Christmas past (Oliver Heaviside), the Ghost of Christmas present (Henry Ott) and the ghost of future Christmases (Howard Johnson)....
Point out some forums then, where I will learn the mystical aspect of digital audio, because digital signal transmission is a big part of my life and I am always interested in it, though I tend to use more mundane tomes for my guidance such a "high speed digital design" or "electromagnetic compatability engineering".
A quick question for you, how can a light switch on almost instantly when electron drift velocity is only approx 84mm an hour
 
Old 15th December 2011, 04:42 PM   #32
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
If you just stamp your feet hard enough and keep saying, "I hear what I hear," it becomes real.
If you ask someone to make an ABX test to show he can actually hear that you will be accused by others of an evil plan to ruin that person's credibility. And it is a real story :-)
 
Old 15th December 2011, 04:48 PM   #33
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Waiting to be enlightened
 
Old 15th December 2011, 05:41 PM   #34
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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Originally Posted by marce View Post
Phofman, what do you mean, what will I learn, that there is some magic in digital signal transmission, who is going to teach it me the ghosts of Christmas past (Oliver Heaviside), the Ghost of Christmas present (Henry Ott) and the ghost of future Christmases (Howard Johnson)....
Point out some forums then, where I will learn the mystical aspect of digital audio, because digital signal transmission is a big part of my life and I am always interested in it, though I tend to use more mundane tomes for my guidance such a "high speed digital design" or "electromagnetic compatability engineering".
Oh, there are many (here, audioasylum, computeraudiophile, many others). You will be either taught successfully, or you will leave voluntarily

And if you persist, in the end comes the final argument of ABX tests proving nothing since they require very specific conditions, you will learn about psychology aspects, fatigue of listeners etc. etc. and therefore it makes no sense to even try anyway. But that is just discussing whether someone actually hears what he claims, we have not touched the actual reasons yet :-)
 
Old 16th December 2011, 06:42 AM   #35
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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What will I be taught, I would presume not a lot by people who design SATA cables by ear. We would use simulation, network analysers, the design would be tested for emmissions (thats EMC) etc etc
Aas the cable does not directly feed the digital data to the DAC then there has to be buffering in between and as pointed out it is probasbly stored in RAM, which on a PC means DDR memory, maybe we should design that interface by ear.......In fact that could be a whole new thread, how to modify a DDR memory interface
So ABXing or any other listening test is gonna tell us naff all about the cables unless they are that badly engineered that data cannot get through.
I do learn a lot off this site Phofman, but I dont think this thread is gonna teach me much other than support my view on pseudo science invading digital electronics.
 
Old 16th December 2011, 07:11 AM   #36
sandyK is offline sandyK  Australia
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Originally Posted by phofman View Post
Sata cables are regular discussion topic on audiophile forums

sata cables sound quality - Google Search

But what you will almost never find are reports about simple yet credible ABX tests to support the claims.
Well how about the one you tried on Paul Raulerson in C.A. recently ?
SandyK
 
Old 16th December 2011, 10:55 AM   #37
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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Well how about the one you tried on Paul Raulerson in C.A. recently ?
SandyK
Yes, that one was the reason I used the word "almost". Consequently there were other threads where ABX suggestions ended up with the "It is too complicated to do properly" argument.

And yes, I read your in my view paranoid analysis of our in my opinion fruitful discussion with Paul elsewhere :-)
 
Old 16th December 2011, 11:12 AM   #38
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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What will I be taught, I would presume not a lot by people who design SATA cables by ear. We would use simulation, network analysers, the design would be tested for emmissions (thats EMC) etc etc
You will be taught that there are phenomenons beyond our current scientific knowledge and that as a scientist you should be open to new facts. You cannot refute such arguments, you can only go away :-) Which is IMO the only right thing to do.
 
Old 16th December 2011, 11:31 AM   #39
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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We are talking about digital signals and the SATA interface, not particle physics, and probably not on an audio basesd site
One a more personal note to answer your comment, why should I go away, you are not giving me any data, just sprouting the usual arguments to requests for specific data as to why it affect sound...
If you have ever been involved with any electricl product design you will know that you have to take measuements to determine what is going on, and for the SATA interface you would use a network analyser, and scopes, and when laying out a PC motherboard or other equipement that is going to use SATA, you would simulate the design, I have done PC motherboards and after the buffers STAT host controller, RAM etc etc how can listening tell what changes the cable is having, how what are the mechanisms, give me one possible avenue to follow.
As I have said, would these audio sites teach me more than the gentlemen I mentioned in post #31?
I am open to new facts, but dont often see more than anecdotal eveidence in some of the Aduio claims for improvement, especially with digital audio, where so many new myths are being perpetrated, without any scientific facts to back them up other than "I hear a difference" so back it up with facts...And as I have said, in the real world of electronic digital design we dont seem to have these magic phenomena...
 
Old 16th December 2011, 11:39 AM   #40
SY is offline SY  United States
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marce, you guys agree, he's being a bit sarcastic/playful.
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