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Old 12th January 2012, 10:32 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Well, that's the thing about digital- you either get gross effects which are easy to fix (a $5 SATA cable to replace a defective one) and are evident in all sorts of data transfer, or you get nothing. Binary, as it were.

Now indeed, if there's some new sort of physics that has escaped the attention of large industries with much higher mission criticality but is evident to a group of audiophiles, then some evidence is needed. I rate that probability vanishingly low, but solid evidence triumphs preconception.
I agree, I suspect in my case the cables worked fine on the HD's because the driver was better and probably handled the errors. In the case of an audio stream, who knows what difference the errors will make? It will be dependent on the software. So the perceived improvements discussed here could be as simple as removing errors, and the software not having to deal with them.

Note that the cables I was using were the asus provided ones, then I bought some $5 ones that made no difference, it wasn't until I tried the more expensive one with all the marketing BS that the problem went away. I thought digital is digital, it either works or it doesn't, that was sort of the case here, however it worked fine in one application but not in another. This I put down to software and error detection/correction.

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Old 12th January 2012, 10:50 PM   #102
Wombat is offline Wombat  Germany
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I just copied data over a standard SATA cable with ~80MB/s to my SSD
I have build many PCs and worked in a building with ~800 Computers that had at least 1 SATA HD. I canīt remember we had to change only "1" of these cables ever.
I doubt we will ever have to wonder about an errorate that can even remotely confuse audiofile playback until something is very broken.
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Old 12th January 2012, 11:03 PM   #103
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
I agree, I suspect in my case the cables worked fine on the HD's because the driver was better and probably handled the errors. In the case of an audio stream, who knows what difference the errors will make? It will be dependent on the software. So the perceived improvements discussed here could be as simple as removing errors, and the software not having to deal with them.
SATA communication is guarded by checksums in hardware. If the checksums fail, errors get thrown and logged (smart, OS logs, etc.). There is no way this hardware can distinguish between audio data or e.g. executable code being transfered over the SATA interface.

I have encountered broken unreliable SATA cables. But that comes to the point - they either work reliably or don't. Regardless of what type of data is being transferred.
 
Old 13th January 2012, 08:17 AM   #104
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The improvements that are possible to hear by audiophiles when as an example a SATA cable is replaced with a silver SATA cable have little to do with error levels or error correction.

The hearing are an extremely good measuring instrument that are not limited in function.

What you are able to hear as a difference is simply a difference in the total accumulated noise level and sometimes in the jitter level.

I myself do not only use improved cables, but I have galvanic isolation on SATA, USB etc. etc..

The galvanic isolation gives a greater improvement in audio performance than cables alone can do.

These improvements in audio performance are as said related to noise levels and jitter levels and have little to do with error correction and basic function.

If the ear or eyes (noise and jitter will change the visual aspects) are not involved then the noise and jitter levels only need to be good enough to avoid data loss or data errors...

Last edited by RayCtech; 13th January 2012 at 08:24 AM.
 
Old 13th January 2012, 09:01 AM   #105
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Wow, what an entertaining thread!
Anyone who believes shielded silver or even shielded gold wires affects a digital transmission node knows nothing about digital transmission nodes.
Audio?.....that's the analog wavefront that stimulates your ear hairs!
From your speaker cones.....hmmmm...where's the weak link in this node scenario.
Hmmmmm.....sounds better to me!
Taiwan man needs to keep trying though.....
It sort of makes you wonder if these guys who claim to be engineers and beta testers from S. Africa really know anything about electronics or if they just think they do.
I could see using Taiwan shielded silver for runs from stage to the mobile truck to cut down on noise generated in the audio/video feeds....but then that would be too easy......just the slighest MADI drift will sound soooo much diffrent over the arrays.
 
Old 13th January 2012, 09:16 AM   #106
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ur wrong, lol
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Old 13th January 2012, 09:33 AM   #107
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Digital data dose not accumulate noise unlike analogue, and jitter in the Audiophile sense is not a problem with SATA communications, once the data is read from the disc (and checked via CRC, as Wombat pointed out) it is buffered, so the squarewave is recreated when transfered from the buffer to the next reciever in its path from hard drive to sound card, and jitter would only be of concern if you use the SPDIF interface, as the last link in the chain (and beleive such low levels of jitter are audible). As to noise, when you refer to accumulated noise, galvonic isolation at the final stage before the DAC will avoid the transfer of the general background digital noise. This wont get rid of the digital noise that is on your DAC board, but that will be minimal dependant on the layout and decoupling scheme.
I am curious as to why in the proffesional world of digital design (audio/communications related) they dont rely on their ears alone to design but use high speed scopes, network analysers and simulation software for the digital side of the design. And use ears to listen to the final output only
 
Old 13th January 2012, 09:39 AM   #108
phofman is offline phofman  Czech Republic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCtech View Post
The improvements that are possible to hear by audiophiles

The hearing are an extremely good measuring instrument that are not limited in function.

What you are able to hear as a difference is simply a difference in the total accumulated noise level and sometimes in the jitter level.
IMO there is no point in discussing causes of an effect which has not been confirmed to exist objectively. Ears are definitely an extremely good measuring instrument, but the brain down the stream is just as good at giving subjective impressions.

Once someone does an objective undisputable listening test confirming the effect, we can start analyzing the causes.
 
Old 13th January 2012, 09:44 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marce View Post
Digital data dose not accumulate noise unlike analogue, and jitter in the Audiophile sense is not a problem with SATA communications, once the data is read from the disc (and checked via CRC, as Wombat pointed out) it is buffered, so the squarewave is recreated when transfered from the buffer to the next reciever in its path from hard drive to sound card, and jitter would only be of concern if you use the SPDIF interface, as the last link in the chain (and beleive such low levels of jitter are audible). As to noise, when you refer to accumulated noise, galvonic isolation at the final stage before the DAC will avoid the transfer of the general background digital noise. This wont get rid of the digital noise that is on your DAC board, but that will be minimal dependant on the layout and decoupling scheme.
I am curious as to why in the proffesional world of digital design (audio/communications related) they dont rely on their ears alone to design but use high speed scopes, network analysers and simulation software for the digital side of the design. And use ears to listen to the final output only
System noise accumulate.

Even if data is read from a SATA drive and into RAM and played then the noise generated from the SATA drive / connection when physically connected will accumulate and alter the audio performance.
If the SATA drive was physically disconnected / powered off during play from RAM the accumulated noise would be altered and the audio altered (most possibly improved).
 
Old 13th January 2012, 10:59 AM   #110
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Yeah as I've said its general digital noise that all digital systems create, so galvonic isolation at the DAC stage will stop the noise getting onto tha analogue wave. You cant engineer that out without a good scope, and even then all you can do is cut it down as a lot of the noise is created by multiple gates switching at the same time ( call simultaneous switching noise). The way you were describing the jitter and noise sounded like it accumulated on the digital data stream, ie that the noise was supperimposed on the wave and transferred through the various buffering as it travels from disk to DAC.
If you isolate between the PC and the DAC then you will limit the noise to the minimum. As to digital systems, that it the whole point of using it, it is pretty tollerant of noise, but to examine this noise you need a good scope, 13GHz + will suffice.
Henry Otts book Electromagnetic Compatability Engineering is an essential read if you are doing digital (and analogue) design, and at the end of the day it is all engineering and basic physics.
Still waiting for the revalation that will open up a whole new world of design, or is noise it, if so its already known and a hell of a lot of design effort goes in to reducing it and keeping it to acceptable levels for systems to operate...
So isolate the DAC from the PC, a good qaulity fibre link will do the trick, no ground loops or PC noise to worry about, or use an ethernet interface, they are pretty well isolated.
 

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