THX for writing up your experience.
I agree to your statement about the effects per modification being cumulative altogether.
I'd go a step further. It IMO doesn't make sense to dissect those mods.
They - to a great extent - depend on each other.
E.g. You can`t run a very small buffer, if the system is too slow in managing those small sizes. That means the buffer mod (at lowest value) will only work if the other mods are applied beforehand.
Not to forget to mention another side effect or better limitation: The lowest buffer setting might work on 44/16, while 24/96 is causing XRUNS.
Or decoding flacs on the server improves performance on 44.1/16 but makes things worse on 24/96 (there is much more traffic to handle).
The consequence would be:
1. To find the best compromise (you'd obviously be compromising the last
bit of SQ)
2. To have a dynamically changing configuration on a per
samplerate/bitdepth basis.
Again, the basic idea behind my modifications is to reduce as much activities/load/interrupts/distortion/noise/PS load variations/asf.
as possible. As usual - at a certain point you have to go for the best compromise.
Cheers
Come on, serving the shorter alsa buffer requires more load/interrupts/activites. Plus brings a much bigger danger of xruns, especially for higher fs.
Where are your noise and jitter measurements confirming your claims?
Ever done measurements inside the PC to figure out the CPU load related jitter and noise impact on SPDIF?
You wouldn't believe others doing measurements or word-of-mouth propaganda , wouldn't you?
Or have you just experienced it?
You might guess that after digging into the subject for a little while,
I'm well aware that very small buffers (I just wrote it 3 posts earlier)
might cause instabilities under normal conditions. Though we're not
running under and talking about normal conditions here.
I do also know that buffer management is causing interrupts, buffer management (flush and fill). HW interrupts need to get in sync with
the processor asf. asf.
I don't have an explanation for the experienced effects. Why should I?
If I'd try to figure out any root cause of all those mods. I'd probably
need a team of engineers, tons of equipment and a bucket full of money.
The point is:
I'm consequently following my overall strategy. And that seems
to work. (And it works not only on my system.) This is the most
efficient approach I can think of.
I btw also need some time for listening to my gear.
Where are your noise and jitter measurements confirming your claims?
Ever done measurements inside the PC to figure out the CPU load related jitter and noise impact on SPDIF?
You wouldn't believe others doing measurements or word-of-mouth propaganda , wouldn't you?
Or have you just experienced it?
b) is true. On one machine I have a tripath amp supplied by 12V directly from the PC and when the volume if fully up I can hear mouse moving (interrupts), letters appearing in terminal (interrupts), harddrive working (load variation, interrupts). On another machine I can hear CPU working - the coils on the onboard step-down converter form the CPU are somewhat loose and thus producing a very audible noise. I can imagine what the CPU load does to supply lines electric noise.
Just like what shorter alsa buffers do, forcing the card throw "done with processing your data" interrupts like crazy and the application to wake up every few milisecs and feed the buffer with tiny bursts of data, instead of doing it once a second or even longer and letting the card do its job on its own. It takes no major knowledge, just a bit of common sense.
If your overall strategy as stated in the previous post is reducing interrupts/CPU load/activites, then with the short buffer mod you are doing the exact opposite.
Yes, it seems to work to you. But please do not exclude the qualifier "seems to" from your resolute statements, others believing you may get confused.
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phofman.
please stop to poison over and over any thread I've started.
I just said. I do not have any explanation for this or that effect.
I don't intend to figure out what's causing it.
The point is - You don't have any clue either, even worse, you'd
never try those modifications.
I do respect your background and competence in
certain areas.
But I do my stuff. You do yours (whatever that is - beside commenting my posts)
Your comments over here IMO doesn't lead anywhere. People have to read all this destructive stuff.
If you're willing to contribute modifications for a Squeezebox Touch,
you're invited - at least from my perspective . Though I doubt that I will see any constructive contribution coming from your side soon.
If you own a Touch ( probably not even that is the case) just run it the way it is and enjoy.
please stop to poison over and over any thread I've started.
I just said. I do not have any explanation for this or that effect.
I don't intend to figure out what's causing it.
The point is - You don't have any clue either, even worse, you'd
never try those modifications.
I do respect your background and competence in
certain areas.
But I do my stuff. You do yours (whatever that is - beside commenting my posts)
Your comments over here IMO doesn't lead anywhere. People have to read all this destructive stuff.
If you're willing to contribute modifications for a Squeezebox Touch,
you're invited - at least from my perspective . Though I doubt that I will see any constructive contribution coming from your side soon.
If you own a Touch ( probably not even that is the case) just run it the way it is and enjoy.
Just wanted to say, that about 2 weeks ago i did the mods from Soundcheck's old Blog...i am using the Touch as a transport...there is a definite, quite substantial improvement...to tell you the truth everything improves, but the things that stood out to me, was the big open 3d soundstage, the cleaness of sound and dynamics. To me these mods transform the Touch as a transport from a hifi sound to a LIVE sound. And this is without upgrading the power supply to a linear supply!!! This i will build as soon as i have funds.
Thank you very much for sharing the mods Soundcheck...i highly recommend anyone with a Touch to do the mods, try for yourself and see.
I also hope that you get the current situation sorted. All the best. Looking forward to trying all the other new mods
Alon
EDIT 'OH yeah forgot to say...the BASS after the mods sounds AWESOME!!'
Thank you very much for sharing the mods Soundcheck...i highly recommend anyone with a Touch to do the mods, try for yourself and see.
I also hope that you get the current situation sorted. All the best. Looking forward to trying all the other new mods
Alon
EDIT 'OH yeah forgot to say...the BASS after the mods sounds AWESOME!!'
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Some observations I have had with 24/96 vs redbook on the touch:
I have mentioned before that I have had bad results streaming PCM 24/96 though my LAN to the touch. It sounds horrible. I know someone has traced out the code and it appears to be done right, but it ain't. It sounds very muted, like a poor mp3. This only happens on more challenging music (Coltrane's greensleeves from Africa brass for example). Funny though, I don't get the same results from the free downloaded hdtracks samplers. I can put flac back as native and restart the touch from the web based GUI on my laptop, and it is back to where it should be.
The thing is, that it isn't nearly as good as redbook on the modded touch. With the mods in place the music flows and shows more complexity. When I used to run Naim gear we called this pace, rhythm and timing. If I so much as stream flac as native the sound stage constricts to a hard focus and the music losses it's emotion.
So for now I am leaving PCM as native unless I want to listen to some 24/96, where I set flac as native.
IMO the touch makes a darned good redbook transport, but isn't good at 24/96.
I have mentioned before that I have had bad results streaming PCM 24/96 though my LAN to the touch. It sounds horrible. I know someone has traced out the code and it appears to be done right, but it ain't. It sounds very muted, like a poor mp3. This only happens on more challenging music (Coltrane's greensleeves from Africa brass for example). Funny though, I don't get the same results from the free downloaded hdtracks samplers. I can put flac back as native and restart the touch from the web based GUI on my laptop, and it is back to where it should be.
The thing is, that it isn't nearly as good as redbook on the modded touch. With the mods in place the music flows and shows more complexity. When I used to run Naim gear we called this pace, rhythm and timing. If I so much as stream flac as native the sound stage constricts to a hard focus and the music losses it's emotion.
So for now I am leaving PCM as native unless I want to listen to some 24/96, where I set flac as native.
IMO the touch makes a darned good redbook transport, but isn't good at 24/96.
Yep. I figured that out earlier. I think I also mentioned it.
24/96 is of course causing substantial more load on the receiver if sent as a PCM stream.
With the mods installed the buffers might have to be increased. You really need to find the right balance.
Nice would be if we could define a different rule for 24/96 flacs in /etc/convert.conf. This way 44/16 could be sent as PCM and 24/96 as flac.
Did you try 24/96 as flac without mods in place?
I do recall a message that Logitech has worked on a Hirez-Flac performance issue recently. They seem to have identified an
issue there. Not sure if it is solved by now.
It's a bit confusing that you experience different results on different Hirez files.
24/96 is of course causing substantial more load on the receiver if sent as a PCM stream.
With the mods installed the buffers might have to be increased. You really need to find the right balance.
Nice would be if we could define a different rule for 24/96 flacs in /etc/convert.conf. This way 44/16 could be sent as PCM and 24/96 as flac.
Did you try 24/96 as flac without mods in place?
I do recall a message that Logitech has worked on a Hirez-Flac performance issue recently. They seem to have identified an
issue there. Not sure if it is solved by now.
It's a bit confusing that you experience different results on different Hirez files.
I have tried high res flac with out the mods. It isn't as alive as simple 44.1 with the mods I have in place. I can make the modded player work fairly well by simply making flac native for the session, again it isn't as good as the modded player with 44.1. I am going to try a newer router to see if it helps, mines not junk but it may help.
I haven't gotten my greasy little hands on your buffer mod or the screen mod. I have to say I am dying to try them.
I haven't gotten my greasy little hands on your buffer mod or the screen mod. I have to say I am dying to try them.
Soundcheck scripts are no more available online. Very nice.
I have the rcs.local, alsa.conf for digital and analogue and buffer script. Unfortunately i don't have the "screen off" script.
Can anybody send me the "scrren off" script&readme for it ? Thanks.
Somebody knows some other good sw mods ?
Cheers,
I have the rcs.local, alsa.conf for digital and analogue and buffer script. Unfortunately i don't have the "screen off" script.
Can anybody send me the "scrren off" script&readme for it ? Thanks.
Somebody knows some other good sw mods ?
Cheers,
As a matter of fact the network requires quite some attention.
The router and setup can make a difference even the PS of the router can make a difference. The networking parameters can make a difference.
Not to forget cabling and grounding.
I think grounding is an area to have a closer look at. Professional networks are all properly grounded. I havn't seen a private network following typical industrial grounding rules.
If you buy ethernet cables. Buy quality >cat6 >500MHZ cables. Poor cabling is causing more load and distortions on a network. You need to cover not only the router-touch route!
Cheers
I am going to rewire my LAN with cat6. I was just reading that cat5 doesn't properly support 100Base-T or gigabit Ethernet, and belkin claims an improvement on return loss in most current networks by 40 percent. Luckily I don't have much on my LAN. Unfortunately it looks like I might have to go mail order to get it.
I'll post my results
I'll post my results
Since it appears that Soundcheck/Klaus will not be reposting the very helpful
scripts and instructions, at least in my lifetime, would somebody please supply the "screen off" and so called "buffer" mod instructions.
I have the rest of the mods and a linear, regulated ps on both my Touches and they are connected via Cat6. I'm not planning on selling anything, BTW.
I'm sending all music as PCM, including 24/96 flac downloads to the Touch and I don't hear a dropoff in sound quality nor do I notice a great improvement over Red Book rips either. I emailed John Swenson and he told me to ignore that 1411 kbps playback as it is only associated w/ lossy formats like MP3.
Anyway, Merry Christmas!
scripts and instructions, at least in my lifetime, would somebody please supply the "screen off" and so called "buffer" mod instructions.
I have the rest of the mods and a linear, regulated ps on both my Touches and they are connected via Cat6. I'm not planning on selling anything, BTW.
I'm sending all music as PCM, including 24/96 flac downloads to the Touch and I don't hear a dropoff in sound quality nor do I notice a great improvement over Red Book rips either. I emailed John Swenson and he told me to ignore that 1411 kbps playback as it is only associated w/ lossy formats like MP3.
Anyway, Merry Christmas!