I was wondering if there is any audible difference between accessing your rips from the local server via wifi and using an external USB drive plugged directly into the rear of the Touch?
I read ONE review that stated that SQ suffers and it is a non starter, but I am not sure about this.
I'm interested in the Touch because of this feature, essentially using it as a audio computer without the hassle of booting up a OS each time I want a listening session.
Can someone compare the sound quality and tell me if there is any difference when using an external drive?
Thanks in advance
I read ONE review that stated that SQ suffers and it is a non starter, but I am not sure about this.
I'm interested in the Touch because of this feature, essentially using it as a audio computer without the hassle of booting up a OS each time I want a listening session.
Can someone compare the sound quality and tell me if there is any difference when using an external drive?
Thanks in advance
Hi.
Wifi is a NoGo - if SQ is your primary focus.
Any local server actvities and/or peripherals should be avoided - if SQ is your primary focus.
Even flac decoding on the Touch should be avoided, , if SQ is your primary focus.
Best is to turn the monitor off ( hardware) , if SQ is your primary focus.
If you follow all these rules (there are some more) you'll have a pretty high-end transport at hand. Otherwise you'll look at a pretty average and overpriced consumer product.
Cheers
Wifi is a NoGo - if SQ is your primary focus.
Any local server actvities and/or peripherals should be avoided - if SQ is your primary focus.
Even flac decoding on the Touch should be avoided, , if SQ is your primary focus.
Best is to turn the monitor off ( hardware) , if SQ is your primary focus.
If you follow all these rules (there are some more) you'll have a pretty high-end transport at hand. Otherwise you'll look at a pretty average and overpriced consumer product.
Cheers
Hi Soundcheck
So, I am an audiophile interested to get the best system I can within my budget. Isn't that what we all are here? I have a £1000 valve output CD player that I am about to sell and a beautiful SET I made about 3 years ago.
I just made the leap to computer audio, and using a SB Duet and a local wifi server from my iMac/HDD. I'm now also using a gainclone amp and high-end NOS DAC and the step up in quality was astounding. What I hear is so real it defies the word hifi.
Unfortunately the Duet had some serious bugs and kept loosing my library on a daily basis so it has had to go back. I am considering either the Touch or using an ibook laptop and a hiface converter.
When I see people writing that if you don't turn off the screen or if you use wifi it is all going to sound mediocre I am confused. How can this be? Is what I am listening to just mediocre... and my well reviewed and respected CDP being at best slightly less than mediocre?
I am listening to what you say and open to learning about what to avoid in order to make the ultimate system within my budget but I think we need to stop hyping the differences that things make. It makes it too confusing anyone that hasn't heard a well set-up computer based system.
I wanted to know if when using a Touch, the SQ suffers when the USB HDD is plugged direct into the inputs of the unit compared to when streaming audio from the local server (uncompressed WAVs)
Many thanks in advance
So, I am an audiophile interested to get the best system I can within my budget. Isn't that what we all are here? I have a £1000 valve output CD player that I am about to sell and a beautiful SET I made about 3 years ago.
I just made the leap to computer audio, and using a SB Duet and a local wifi server from my iMac/HDD. I'm now also using a gainclone amp and high-end NOS DAC and the step up in quality was astounding. What I hear is so real it defies the word hifi.
Unfortunately the Duet had some serious bugs and kept loosing my library on a daily basis so it has had to go back. I am considering either the Touch or using an ibook laptop and a hiface converter.
When I see people writing that if you don't turn off the screen or if you use wifi it is all going to sound mediocre I am confused. How can this be? Is what I am listening to just mediocre... and my well reviewed and respected CDP being at best slightly less than mediocre?
I am listening to what you say and open to learning about what to avoid in order to make the ultimate system within my budget but I think we need to stop hyping the differences that things make. It makes it too confusing anyone that hasn't heard a well set-up computer based system.
I wanted to know if when using a Touch, the SQ suffers when the USB HDD is plugged direct into the inputs of the unit compared to when streaming audio from the local server (uncompressed WAVs)
Many thanks in advance
I wouldn't blame the Duet. It is the Squeezebox Server and/or your PC server which is to blame. (Or your server administration
)I am running the Squeezebox Server since quite some time. In my case it runs dead stable.
Hiface and iBook I consider a total overkill. And you'll for sure face similar issues. ( Search for Amarra/ Pure Music tools and discussions about how to get reasonable audio from a MAC). My recommendation - stay away from it.
I can tell you that with a tweaked Touch and an old PC as server you'll have the better and much cheaper solution - under beforementioned conditions.
The new Touch is a very little PC running a Linux as OS. It got 128MB Ram inside. You can't expect much from such a toy. Any load will cause a certain degradation on SQ.
If you want to use all the new (local) features stay away from it.
If you can accept its base transport/streaming features and the SPDIF output. You'll have a great transport.
I forgot to mention in the first post, that the Touch needs a well done
5V PS to perform best. ( E.g. 12V SLA with SuperTeddyReg)
As I said before. SQ suffers if you run a local HDD ( I called it peripherals
).The prefered configuration is: A straight PCM stream from a wired remote server.
In the end you'd be running the Touch in "Duet"-mode at 3 times the price of a Duet. That's a fact. Still, the quality, under discussed conditions, is that good, that I'd say it's worth it.
Since we're are at DIY-Audio over here. It shouldn't be that difficult to introduce a couple of tweaks to the Touch for the people around here.
I've also tweaked the Touch Linux side already. I applied several findings of
my "Linux Audio To Go" project - see link below. All my findings from the last 3.5 years do apply.
My Linux tweaks are giving me an extra 10% on SQ. ( startpoint at above recommended tweaked solution)
There is no need to have a CDP around anymore.
Cheers
I wouldn't blame the Duet. It is the Squeezebox Server and/or your PC server which is to blame. (Or your server administration
I am running the Squeezebox Server since quite some time. In my case it runs dead stable.
I'm glad to hear this. I have no experice with these things but I ended up sending it back because no-one could help me make it stable or identify why and where to look for the problems.
I still like the idea of a duet passing uncompressed audio straight through to my DAC...
Any pointers welcome!
Hiface and iBook I consider a total overkill. And you'll for sure face similar issues. ( Search for Amarra/ Pure Music tools and discussions about how to get reasonable audio from a MAC). My recommendation - stay away from it.
I would prefer not to look at a laptop screen so Duet or Touch wins there too. But I don't want to compromise on SQ.
The new Touch is a very little PC running a Linux as OS. It got 128MB Ram inside. You can't expect much from such a toy. Any load will cause a certain degradation on SQ.
If you want to use all the new (local) features stay away from it.
If you can accept its base transport/streaming features and the SPDIF output. You'll have a great transport.
What do you mean here - base transport features? I want to use it to pass through digital without using it's DAC that's all. But it would be a bit pointless having a Touch and disabling the screen, so maybe the Duet is a better option for me?
I forgot to mention in the first post, that the Touch needs a well done
5V PS to perform best. ( E.g. 12V SLA with SuperTeddyReg)
I was planning a DIY regulated supply but could consider DC too
As I said before. SQ suffers if you run a local HDD ( I called it peripherals
That's what I needed to know. Looks like I will avoid then.
The prefered configuration is: A straight PCM stream from a wired remote server.
I can't hard wire my mac due to room constraints. I need to wifi to the router and then to the Hifi - which is why I was considering the Touch with a USB drive attached, to avoid this double wifi set-up. Or even thought about using the mains and some of those mains plugs/ethernet devices, but I imagine they add a lot of distortion to the mains...
In the end you'd be running the Touch in "Duet"-mode at 3 times the price of a Duet. That's a fact. Still, the quality, under discussed conditions, is that good, that I'd say it's worth it.
So are you saying that a tweaked Touch is a lot better then a Duet?
My Linux tweaks are giving me an extra 10% on SQ.
Alas I know nothing about tweaking OS be it open software or not. I just need a solution that I can buy (and I will tweak with the cables...)
There is no need to have a CDP around anymore.
I know, this is how I am going to raise the money to go to the next stage.
Thanks for this info. I guess I just need to get to the bottom of why the SB Duet was so unstable and sort that out.
Is there anywhere/anyone I can go to for guidance on this. The Logitech forums are useless.
I am running the Touch on wireless and with an SD card. Its connected to a V-DAC, KT88 PP tube amp and Triangle Comete ES speakers. I cannot hear any difference in this setting.
I cannot use the USB drive. The server almost never finishes scanning the files. And 24/96 files simply do not work. No problem with the 32G SD card.
I cannot use the USB drive. The server almost never finishes scanning the files. And 24/96 files simply do not work. No problem with the 32G SD card.
I'm running the touch with USB external hd and new power supply (low noise), connected to gigawork dac with UTC-A20 trafos, pre aikido and 829B tube amp and sounds and works simply great! There are over 3000 flac files on usb hd, and there are some buffering probs with some 96khz files downloaded, none with self ripped files, but I solved the prob simply converting those files with Switch Sound File Converter. About indexing the hd, the small secret is to leave quite the touch while indexing, for 3000 files needs about 15minutes the first time, then no one prob
I think you got difficulties to understand what I am talking about.
The things I am bringing up here are - to a large extent - not my exclusive findings.
Especially the ones related to local server operation which implies
a locally hooked up HDD or SD-card.
We've done several A/B tests on top-end equipment.
I'd recommend you to order a piece and try it by yourself. You'll always have a return option.
And if you're not able to use a wired ethernet, I consider this discussion useless anyhow. I can tell you that you'll never get best sound from that box.
"Best Sound" is a relative term which can be twisted and bended of course.
The box might sound better then your Duet. You'll gain something. Fair enough.
Though, after this discussion you'll know that you made it just half the way to the top. You might be able to live with this fact - at least for a while.
Enjoy.
Good luck.
Thanks again Soundcheck
I am having no difficulty in understanding what you are saying and your opinion has been registered. I was however, asking other owners with other set-ups to also comment on their findings. I always think it is best to hear many sides of the same coin to get as rounded view of things as possible.
I respect your answers and understand that you are putting forward a consensus of opinions but I find it hard to accept that the sound I get from my system is only mediocre, which is what you imply when you say that I may only get half way to the top.
I am by no means going to make a decision based entirely on people's opinions alone and will of course audition before I settle.
Your answer is well noted - thanks
I am having no difficulty in understanding what you are saying and your opinion has been registered. I was however, asking other owners with other set-ups to also comment on their findings. I always think it is best to hear many sides of the same coin to get as rounded view of things as possible.
I respect your answers and understand that you are putting forward a consensus of opinions but I find it hard to accept that the sound I get from my system is only mediocre, which is what you imply when you say that I may only get half way to the top.
I am by no means going to make a decision based entirely on people's opinions alone and will of course audition before I settle.
Your answer is well noted - thanks
Checkout the Touch section in the Logitech forum. There you'll address a couple of hundred Touch users at the same time.
Or just look up the threads which cover your subject.
My guess -- all that won't get you any further. Order a box and make up your own mind.
And just to say it again: I didn't express an "opinion" about the subject.
We've done real live comparisons over here. I expressed the results of our comparisons, which are confirmed by several other Touch users, who experienced the same behavior.
Cheers
Or just look up the threads which cover your subject.
My guess -- all that won't get you any further. Order a box and make up your own mind.
And just to say it again: I didn't express an "opinion" about the subject.
We've done real live comparisons over here. I expressed the results of our comparisons, which are confirmed by several other Touch users, who experienced the same behavior.
Cheers
Hi soundcheck,
can you pls point me where i can find the tweaks on the touch that you pointed out.i want to squeeze the best what the touch has to offer. i just got my touch and so far it sounds good through wifi. i may even say that it outperforms my shigaclone transport. my system are sb touch, behringer upsampler(modifiied the ps and direct spdif out)cs4397 dac(heavily modded) with 6v6 output stage,lighspeed pre, and poinz pp monoblock 6v6 music machine. telefunken ob's. im gonna soon upgrade the 5v ps with salas 5vreg.
thanks
can you pls point me where i can find the tweaks on the touch that you pointed out.i want to squeeze the best what the touch has to offer. i just got my touch and so far it sounds good through wifi. i may even say that it outperforms my shigaclone transport. my system are sb touch, behringer upsampler(modifiied the ps and direct spdif out)cs4397 dac(heavily modded) with 6v6 output stage,lighspeed pre, and poinz pp monoblock 6v6 music machine. telefunken ob's. im gonna soon upgrade the 5v ps with salas 5vreg.
thanks
Soundcheck is right.
The Touch will not work properly in any other way tahn a self powered USB HDD.
Even a memory stick will degrade SQ on it. And yes I did A/B that a lot.
Also the original PSU sucks, you should do a liniar PSU for it, this makes the SPDIF output a lot less noise polutet, which makes a huge difference.
Use a smd polyphenylenesulphide capacitor @ 470nF 50V as decoupling and place it directly in the DC plug, this will make you wake up.
Enjoy
The Touch will not work properly in any other way tahn a self powered USB HDD.
Even a memory stick will degrade SQ on it. And yes I did A/B that a lot.
Also the original PSU sucks, you should do a liniar PSU for it, this makes the SPDIF output a lot less noise polutet, which makes a huge difference.
Use a smd polyphenylenesulphide capacitor @ 470nF 50V as decoupling and place it directly in the DC plug, this will make you wake up.
Enjoy
some time ago opened Touch and traced S/PDIF signal backwards to 74LVCU04 chip (slower 74HCU04 is used in SB3). Digital section can be improved, there is no output transformer and capacitor is parallel to termination resistor , etc, etc. Nothing very critical, problem is lack of space and multilayer PCB, very difficult to trace stripes.
If anyone want to perform micro-surgery & modify things, he should pay attention to R66, R67, R225 resistors and C95, C96 capacitors
, etc, etc. Nothing very critical, problem is lack of space and multilayer PCB, very difficult to trace stripes.If anyone want to perform micro-surgery & modify things, he should pay attention to R66, R67, R225 resistors and C95, C96 capacitors
I don't understand this claim.
Unless the transmitted data packets are corrupted beyond fix-up with error correction why should Wifi audio sound different from non-Wifi (local HDD or Ethernet cable) audio? The data packets are going to arrive intact at the receiver so the data will be the same as those received from cable or via the HDD. Same data packets = same audio.
Hi.
There are several parameters to look at. It is not just the "data". It is actually not at all about the actual data. The datatransmisson is bit transparent, not a single bit gets lost.
Beside the EMI/RFI issues, there is a lot more work required to handle that Wifi interface.
The transmission line speed gets permanently adjusted. There is an extensive sender/receiver negotiation ongoing, asf. The buffer management must be really challenging.
This all means much more load on the receiver. Not only on the SW side, no also on the HW side.
"More load, worse sound" - that's the simple formula you can apply.
Wifi transmission on the Touch means edgy sound.
Not to forget, even if you don't use Wifi, just turning off the Wifi module on the Linux side makes a difference. (You'll also find several posts in the SB forum about it.)
Just try it.
And again: This is not a or my claim. There are several people who experienced this and would confirm this.
Cheers
Agreed.
None of that seems relevant to how the mechanics of analogue reproduction works. As I understand it the sound quality will depend of the quality of the digital to analogue conversation, nothing else, given we already agree that "not a single bit gets lost". That is, all packets of audio encoded data get to the DAC intact.
What specifically do you mean by "load" on the receiver? Either the DAC can handle the stream of data or it can't and packets are not processed. That would be true of any transport protocol delivering packets to the DAC (wireless, cable or hard drive). If a packet is lost or not processed then you'll get audible pops in the output audio. The Wifi protocol is robust and there are memory buffers in the receiver so packets are received in tatct and in sequence so that the DAC can do its job.
If the packets are delivered intact (which they are) then the sound will be the same as those delivered via ethernet or HDD.
Try an ABX (non sighted double blind) test of Wifi vs. ethernet vs. HDD. I'm sure it would confirm the logic of the sound being the same. Sighted tests (which I assume are the type that have been done) can suffer from placebo effects and wishful thinking.
Jesus soundcheck... you talk so much bollocks.
How did you cope with the initial learning curve of linux..? Your far from a driver or kernel hacker, but how did you even deal with installing a distribution, when in your head, cheetah blood should be rubbed into the disks to ensure no 'degradation' in 'file quality' occurred...
How did you cope with the initial learning curve of linux..? Your far from a driver or kernel hacker, but how did you even deal with installing a distribution, when in your head, cheetah blood should be rubbed into the disks to ensure no 'degradation' in 'file quality' occurred...
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