Hi chaps, so here's a question I'm sure you'll know the answer to...
Is there such a thing as high quality wireless audio?
I've had a good search and found lots of discussions about routers and squeezy jobbies .... and lots of arguments that go way over my head
Basically I would like to make my speakers 'active' and the amplifier is very easy. But how can you send the source audio to two speakers?
Can you have a module along side each amp that picks up either the left or right channel?
I'm dreaming of no more cables (well very short ones) and no interconects
I have done a quick and dirty version with 2 very small and very cheap A2DP bluetooth recievers/transmitters for mobile phones etc.
I attached a transmitter directly to each output channel of my PS1 DAC (L&R)..... and then it's corresponding receiver directly to the input of each amp, situated only 20 cm from my drivers.
.....and it worked.... not very good quality though.... although not as bad as I had imagined it would be.
So is there something else out there that could do a better job at reasonable cost? Or is this the holy grail?
I'll hack anything as long as there are instructions
Is there such a thing as high quality wireless audio?
I've had a good search and found lots of discussions about routers and squeezy jobbies .... and lots of arguments that go way over my head
Basically I would like to make my speakers 'active' and the amplifier is very easy. But how can you send the source audio to two speakers?
Can you have a module along side each amp that picks up either the left or right channel?
I'm dreaming of no more cables (well very short ones) and no interconects
I have done a quick and dirty version with 2 very small and very cheap A2DP bluetooth recievers/transmitters for mobile phones etc.
I attached a transmitter directly to each output channel of my PS1 DAC (L&R)..... and then it's corresponding receiver directly to the input of each amp, situated only 20 cm from my drivers.
.....and it worked.... not very good quality though
.... although not as bad as I had imagined it would be.So is there something else out there that could do a better job at reasonable cost? Or is this the holy grail?
I'll hack anything as long as there are instructions
This is a question of definitions really, there are FM modulators, bluetooth has a stereo music standard, somebody will always argue that it's not good enough whatever it is...
If you're prepared to specify in terms of THD, S/N or bits/sec then there are some existing systems, or you could build one yourself... I been thinking about using LED's and modulating the stereo bitstream onto the room lighting, 'course then you need a receiver and an A/D and anyway unless you use batteries you still need a power cord to the speakers. Tesla might disagree, but Tesla is dead.
You can get nice little HTPCs now for not much money.
w
If you're prepared to specify in terms of THD, S/N or bits/sec then there are some existing systems, or you could build one yourself... I been thinking about using LED's and modulating the stereo bitstream onto the room lighting, 'course then you need a receiver and an A/D and anyway unless you use batteries you still need a power cord to the speakers. Tesla might disagree, but Tesla is dead.
You can get nice little HTPCs now for not much money.
w
I suppose what I did was over processing the signal DAC conversion then A2DP then back again... This is where I get confounded by the initials when people start taking about transmitting the I2S? and converting it back at the amp.... is that doable / hackable
EDIT:
Hi Wakibaki... you beat me to my second post there...
I wish I followed what you were saying but you did loose me with the LED's and modulating the stereo bit thingie
Yes my speakers still have to be plugged in but they are right next to wall sockets anyway so no issues there.
I feel I've jumped into a rather deep pool here.....
Are you saying put a HTPC on each speaker?.... no you can't be, they aren't that cheap.
I do have a media PC that I can stream the audio from but how do you send it to two speakers with no wires inbetween?
What about using network routers, they are cheap ... is that how squeezboxes work?
EDIT:
Hi Wakibaki... you beat me to my second post there...
I wish I followed what you were saying but you did loose me with the LED's and modulating the stereo bit thingie
Yes my speakers still have to be plugged in but they are right next to wall sockets anyway so no issues there.
I feel I've jumped into a rather deep pool here.....
Are you saying put a HTPC on each speaker?.... no you can't be, they aren't that cheap.
I do have a media PC that I can stream the audio from but how do you send it to two speakers with no wires inbetween?
What about using network routers, they are cheap ... is that how squeezboxes work?
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Ah, no, not one per speaker but perhaps one in or near a speaker with a wireless network card, they're getting smaller and smaller and more and more quiet. Now you've got a wire to the wall, and a wire between speakers.
There is no truly satisfactory wireless speaker system at present. This is because users for the time being prefer to be able to select the source and DAC they want, the amplifier they will pair it with and even the wires they use to connect the component parts together. The chosen DAC/amplifier combination is unlikely to exactly correspond with that which might be chosen by a speaker manufacturer.
Thus in many ways the best that can be done presently is to have a wireless or remotely controlled source/amplifier system and source systems such as the Squeezbox take advantage of the capability to stream audio over a commercial-off-the-shelf wireless or wired network.
Obviously an FM modulator could be employed to talk to 2 speakers. Car-type modulators are readily available. Put a car radio in each of 2 speaker boxes and only connect the lefthand speaker on one radio and the righthand on the other radio. Tune both to the modulator. Instant wireless speaker system...
The problem is, how good is it really?
w
Deep pool, yes. Audio design, more than any other branch of engineering, takes directions a rational engineer might not anticipate.
There is no truly satisfactory wireless speaker system at present. This is because users for the time being prefer to be able to select the source and DAC they want, the amplifier they will pair it with and even the wires they use to connect the component parts together. The chosen DAC/amplifier combination is unlikely to exactly correspond with that which might be chosen by a speaker manufacturer.
Thus in many ways the best that can be done presently is to have a wireless or remotely controlled source/amplifier system and source systems such as the Squeezbox take advantage of the capability to stream audio over a commercial-off-the-shelf wireless or wired network.
Obviously an FM modulator could be employed to talk to 2 speakers. Car-type modulators are readily available. Put a car radio in each of 2 speaker boxes and only connect the lefthand speaker on one radio and the righthand on the other radio. Tune both to the modulator. Instant wireless speaker system...
The problem is, how good is it really?
w
Deep pool, yes. Audio design, more than any other branch of engineering, takes directions a rational engineer might not anticipate.
Thanks for the feedback
Hmm, FM transmitters? Would that be better than A2DP?
So from what you are saying (excuse my ignorance) there is no cost effective way 'currently' to stream 'quality' audio over network routers to two amplifiers?
I currently use T-amps so the cost of that part is irrelevant (I could have 8 speakers with my stash of amps)… if it was possible to stream data (I2S?) to a DAC at each speaker then that would do it?
Used Routers/network cards are very cheap and I'm sure I could build a couple of DAC kits to put on the back of them....
So basically it would look like the attached file....
Is this feasable
Or are there issues with the quality of audio you can stream over these devices?
Sorry to keep asking questions but as my Dad always said... if you don't ask....
Thanks
Hmm, FM transmitters? Would that be better than A2DP?
So from what you are saying (excuse my ignorance) there is no cost effective way 'currently' to stream 'quality' audio over network routers to two amplifiers?
I currently use T-amps so the cost of that part is irrelevant (I could have 8 speakers with my stash of amps)… if it was possible to stream data (I2S?) to a DAC at each speaker then that would do it?
Used Routers/network cards are very cheap and I'm sure I could build a couple of DAC kits to put on the back of them....
So basically it would look like the attached file....
Is this feasable
Or are there issues with the quality of audio you can stream over these devices?
Sorry to keep asking questions but as my Dad always said... if you don't ask....
Thanks
Attachments
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Hi,
I have a cheap AV sender for TV in our house. It is really quite sensitive to interference. I think there are better products designed for specifically for audio.
There is a cheap alternative to the airport express at maplin i-Sender Wireless Audio Sender : 2.4GHz Video Senders : Maplin
You would have to use the inbuilt DAC, or potentially would be able to hack into it. Alternatively the airport express has spdif out.
I would imagine using a DAC per channel operating on a seperate clock source would cause alignment problems. If you were going to have the dacs close enough to use the same clock, you might as well use something like one of the above units and accept some cabling between left and right. Others have reported good results with spdif over the airport.
Ross
I have a cheap AV sender for TV in our house. It is really quite sensitive to interference. I think there are better products designed for specifically for audio.
There is a cheap alternative to the airport express at maplin i-Sender Wireless Audio Sender : 2.4GHz Video Senders : Maplin
You would have to use the inbuilt DAC, or potentially would be able to hack into it. Alternatively the airport express has spdif out.
I would imagine using a DAC per channel operating on a seperate clock source would cause alignment problems. If you were going to have the dacs close enough to use the same clock, you might as well use something like one of the above units and accept some cabling between left and right. Others have reported good results with spdif over the airport.
Ross
Well spotted Ross, Those look nice and cheap
I can't imagine that running seperate DACs would cause me any issues, If I didn't hear any issues with two cheap A2DP transmitters then I expect something like this would be perfectly OK.
.... anyway, I'm trying to get rid of cables and I currently have my DIY integrated source/amp on top of one of my MLTL's (not ideal) so only really have 1 long cable to the other speaker. If I can work this transmitting issue out then I can use my laptop as the source and have absolutely no wires/cables sending audio. OK they need power but that's not an issue here..... In fact I could run everything off batteries as I only run TA2024 amps at lowish volume...
EDIT:
Ahhhh, now I need remote volume that works on both amps and keeps in balance..... not impossible but a little more tricky.
The A2DP setup allowed me to alter the volume using the source.....
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Some video transmitters will work with S/PDIF. Not sure which ones, though.
Or just use some kind of embedded system to connect to the server using NFS over 802.11 and write a simple program to control whatever player program you use. You can use XDMCP with Amarok, but you'll need a rather good embedded system. I think there are already media players intended for such embedded applications.
Or just use some kind of embedded system to connect to the server using NFS over 802.11 and write a simple program to control whatever player program you use. You can use XDMCP with Amarok, but you'll need a rather good embedded system. I think there are already media players intended for such embedded applications.
Hi Ross, not with that particular transmitter it seems, the question was asked in the FAQ @ the bottom of the page.
How much are airport express's... I'll look into it....
The USB seems a good idea as the transmitters would only be small and at the back of the laptop.... and there is a nice little kit that DIY Paradise do for USB... Hmmm
Star882, that sounds really impressive but I have absolutely no idea what you are saying, leave me for a day or two to work it out
Question: If I do use USB or S/PDIF can I use the media players volume control?
They are £65+ each. You might have to use itunes, if you are not already, but there may be plugins to allow you to use other players. A bit more pricey than the AV sender, but to me the more elegant soultion if you can stretch to it.
There is some discussion of wireless usb on audioasylum - it seems it will work quite well, but from an audiophile perspective the jitter is high. So usb dacs will be less sensitive to this than others, but I believe the DIY paradise usb dac will be using an adaptive mode that is sensitive to interface jitter. I would imagine spdif over a composite video interface would fall even shorter of audiophile standards, but if you are going to run unsynced dacs for each channel you might not be concerned about these issues. Probably better than the bluetooth with inbuilt dacs right enough.
Ross
There is some discussion of wireless usb on audioasylum - it seems it will work quite well, but from an audiophile perspective the jitter is high. So usb dacs will be less sensitive to this than others, but I believe the DIY paradise usb dac will be using an adaptive mode that is sensitive to interface jitter. I would imagine spdif over a composite video interface would fall even shorter of audiophile standards, but if you are going to run unsynced dacs for each channel you might not be concerned about these issues. Probably better than the bluetooth with inbuilt dacs right enough.
Ross
Hmmm, OK I'm starting to pick this up now, I'm a FLAC Fubar kinda guy but from what I've heard apple lossless is just as good.
Well I doubt that the different latencies?.. if their is any will be audible, I think we are talking 10ths of miliseconds here aren't we?
I'll look into the express jobbies this weekend to see how they stack up
Cheers Ross
I have been looking at the state of the art wireless digital audio for the lat year. I have met with most of the chip guys in the business. Its far from what is possible with wires. There are several challenges-
1) sample rate: most are fixed sample rate. When I ask if it runs at the source rate I get inconclusive answers. Very few go above 48 KHz. 24 bit depth is discussed but not demonstrated.
2) Syncing multiple units is very difficult. Its the jitter problem but much bigger. Even when they are good they don't start in the same time relationship every time.
3) How do they handle interferance and signal loss? A few glitches at full output and you will lose interest in the whole project.
Its not a simple undertaking. If you just want the playback local to the speakers and wireless control with the content local (in the PC) it can be done with a linux PC, MPD and an MPD client or through a variety of windows/mac solutions. However thats pretty far from a wireless link to the speakers.
1) sample rate: most are fixed sample rate. When I ask if it runs at the source rate I get inconclusive answers. Very few go above 48 KHz. 24 bit depth is discussed but not demonstrated.
2) Syncing multiple units is very difficult. Its the jitter problem but much bigger. Even when they are good they don't start in the same time relationship every time.
3) How do they handle interferance and signal loss? A few glitches at full output and you will lose interest in the whole project.
Its not a simple undertaking. If you just want the playback local to the speakers and wireless control with the content local (in the PC) it can be done with a linux PC, MPD and an MPD client or through a variety of windows/mac solutions. However thats pretty far from a wireless link to the speakers.
Sony AIR-A10R
Sony offers their solution called S-Air Sony AIR-A10R which is really HiFi over WiFi. You can read more at Sony' site: AIR-A10R | Universal Receiver | Sony | Sony Style USA it retails for $99.00
Sony offers their solution called S-Air Sony AIR-A10R which is really HiFi over WiFi. You can read more at Sony' site: AIR-A10R | Universal Receiver | Sony | Sony Style USA it retails for $99.00
If Airport express is an option then Squeezebox is an option as well. You will need to run "Squeezeserver" on one your running machines. It will index your music and serve it to up to 8 "Squeezeboxes" ($129) and you can control everything with the controller ($220) or an iPod touch/iPhone. There are many plug-ins which enable you to tweak the system and its control to quite a wide degree.
The system uses Wi-Fi to transmit PCM or Flac data and converts it at the box. You can do up to 24bits/96Khz if you use a Transporter playback device ($1300) or the future Squeezebox Touch (April 2010; $400).
I currently use Squeezebox but plan to run both it and iTunes based Airport Express as a backup system. I maintain parallel libraries in FLAC and ALAC.
The Squeezebox system can be synched, but is software driven. I hear the competing Sonos system is better for synching as it is designed from the ground up to sync.
You have a few options but each of them requires a machine to be live. Well with Sonos I believe you can use a NAS device to hold your music and it will read from the NAS. I decided to go with a Home Server so it makes no difference to me. All of the 3 mentioned systems can be controlled with an iPod touch/iPhone (+ Olive - which you should also look into in the higher $$$ category).
It also seems that as you go up the price ranges what you are buying is service/support/reliability with the exception of iTunes/Airtunes/Airport Express which is cheap and reliable but limited. I keep the 2 cheapest systems around and between the 2 have reliability and customizability.
The system uses Wi-Fi to transmit PCM or Flac data and converts it at the box. You can do up to 24bits/96Khz if you use a Transporter playback device ($1300) or the future Squeezebox Touch (April 2010; $400).
I currently use Squeezebox but plan to run both it and iTunes based Airport Express as a backup system. I maintain parallel libraries in FLAC and ALAC.
The Squeezebox system can be synched, but is software driven. I hear the competing Sonos system is better for synching as it is designed from the ground up to sync.
You have a few options but each of them requires a machine to be live. Well with Sonos I believe you can use a NAS device to hold your music and it will read from the NAS. I decided to go with a Home Server so it makes no difference to me. All of the 3 mentioned systems can be controlled with an iPod touch/iPhone (+ Olive - which you should also look into in the higher $$$ category).
It also seems that as you go up the price ranges what you are buying is service/support/reliability with the exception of iTunes/Airtunes/Airport Express which is cheap and reliable but limited. I keep the 2 cheapest systems around and between the 2 have reliability and customizability.
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