A nice dac to complement the Aleph-X. - Page 2

Elso Kwak · 15th January 2003, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tschrama
Where is Jocko Homo?!!!!!!!!!

Thijs

Hi Thijs,
Jocko announced to be two months off the board, making $$$$$ and was not sure if he would come back.

uli · 15th January 2003, 08:10 PM

Leve,
those transistors are voltage sources which define the voltage
on top of the 1k65 resistors, in this case about 20V +-0,2V
which means about 3.5V at the gate -> zero at the source.
Adjust for zero output (DC). you only need to select the led for 1,65V at 2mA. Even tight matching of the fets isn´t necessary,
but select them for about 3,6V G-S at 10mA.If you have Fets with 3,8-4,0V swap 47k with 51k. Intrinsic matching is done by using
MAT´s and 0,1% Emitter resistors.With the 2 1k2 resistors both
halves of the MAT see the same collector-current(->same BE voltage)

Uli

PS: As the DF1704 will be replaced by DF1706 (192kHz 8times
oversampling 24bit) I´m looking forward to make a new DAC
with 4 PCM 1704´s per channel instead of 2, but thats a bit
expensive

Nelson Pass · 15th January 2003, 08:18 PM

I don't see why you wouldn't want to simply use the
I/V converter from the D1. Schematics at www.passlabs.com

OliverD · 15th January 2003, 08:48 PM

Two suggestions why people might be afraid to build it:

1.) output capacitors
2.) high rail voltages

Try it, though. It's simple, it's beautiful, and last not least it sounds good. Well, at least better than all the other designs I've stolen until now

Rookie · 15th January 2003, 09:19 PM

How about using passive I/V conversion with resistor and then amplify the voltage across this resistor with Balanced Zen Line Stage? This would be the simplest possible approach but I hope good sounding too.

grataku · 15th January 2003, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nelson Pass
I don't see why you wouldn't want to simply use the
I/V converter from the D1. Schematics at www.passlabs.com

Because you said that "IT IS NOT INTENDED AS A PROJECT" and we are all very respectful.

tschrama · 15th January 2003, 09:46 PM

Jocko is gone...

so now what I'm gonna do

.. I guess this is a bad time to anouce a new, simple, not seen before, (non-original) idea to drastic improve the I/V stage.. I've got a feeling that I've got Jocko's trick now on my computer screen... too bad I can't share it with him... even more bad I can't measure the real performance.. and maybe it is original

... Wel .. if Jocko is alowed to not publish: so am I...

AMT-freak:
Your spot on about the Pass D1 circuit. My ideal I/V stage works of -/+ 5 volt, high PSSR, low THD, low parts-count, no caps.. I/m allmost there.. would you all believe that? Me ? who couldn't even understand the inverting gainclone gain-figure?

I think the D1 I/V stage works very well, but the high Voltage rails make and low PSSR make it more suiteble as an add-on for the BOSOZ...good idea? But I still don't understand why he is addicted to MOSFETs.

AMT-freak: how many I/V-stages have you tried .. I've published 5 or 6 of them .. most of them non-original, but some have a nice feature .. tried any?

As for passive I/V stage: I didn't liked it as much as my simplest active stage? don't now why, may be due to the DAC-chip charateristics..

hmmmmmmm too much beer .. too late... goodnight,

gr,
Thijs

Mark A. Gulbrandsen · 15th January 2003, 11:59 PM

I agree with Nelson on that one. Have you all taken a look see at the D-1 schematic. Its quite unique!!
Mark

LBHajdu · 16th January 2003, 02:03 AM

Maybe I was a bit hasty about dismissing this I/V stage. I’m shore Nelson doesn’t care about us building it he just doesn’t want any questions on it e-mailed to him, although he would probably answer them anyway on this site. It certainly looks to be a good design otherwise pass labs would not be selling it and if price is any indicator it was selling for something like $5,000. I didn’t see as many reviews as would I have like to. The reviewer all generally like it, however there was a consensus that the high-end was rolled off. This is most likely because of c40, c33, and c43. I think Nelson put these in there to get rid of HF noise from the dac. I think a diyer may be able to get away without putting these in (feel free to chime in any time here Mr. Pass). Most of this noise is filtered out by the other equipment and the cable in the audio chain, this is 44.1 KHz and 96 KHz noise so to here it you’ll need tweeters that go all the way up.

One fear I do have about using this stage is, the PCM63 outputs 2ma of current, however most other Burr Brown dacs only do 1.2ma. Does some change have to be made to accommodate this, and would this drop the i/v stages voltage swing.

One funny thing about this i/v struck me when I was going threw the Zen balanced line stage article. Mr. Pass notes that distortion is lower with the Zens rails a 60volt’s as compared to 30v. As voltage goes up distortion goes down. So why didn’t he connect R32 to the negative rail that way there will be at least 30v there. Why did he stop at ground?

I put this design out there on the “Easy-to-build I/V stage” thread and even redrew it to get all that other stuff out of the way. I only got one reply to it:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ric Schultz
Yes, I am not only aware of the Pass I-V stage but have tried it. I am concerned by the possiblility of high distortion with the mosfet circuit and also highish noise from the mosfets. That is why I want to try the lower impedance, lower noise and possibly lower distortion bipolar route(soundwise, I really like FETS). The only way to know which circuit sounds best is to try different ones. And tweek them, of course.

So, any suggestions on using the bipolar circuit with a PCM 1738?

Ric Schultz

I can post this pic as a PDF if anyone wants it .

Leve

Nelson Pass · 16th January 2003, 04:11 AM

What is interesting about the D1 I/V (besides it being the
only part of the circuit I participated in) is that it simply
cascodes the output of the DAC, the output being a current
source looking for a virtual ground. Thus, it contributes
almost no noise or distortion, and is unbelievably immune
to high frequency (RF) modulation and has no feedback
(just for sex appeal).

Why didn't anybody think of this before? Hell if I know.
It is an obvious thing in retrospect, but nobody seems to
have picked up on it. I blame the educational system for
cranking out "digital only" design engineers.

15th January 2003, 08:10 PM	#12
uli diyAudio Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Vienna, Austria	voltage source Leve, those transistors are voltage sources which define the voltage on top of the 1k65 resistors, in this case about 20V +-0,2V which means about 3.5V at the gate -> zero at the source. Adjust for zero output (DC). you only need to select the led for 1,65V at 2mA. Even tight matching of the fets isn´t necessary, but select them for about 3,6V G-S at 10mA.If you have Fets with 3,8-4,0V swap 47k with 51k. Intrinsic matching is done by using MAT´s and 0,1% Emitter resistors.With the 2 1k2 resistors both halves of the MAT see the same collector-current(->same BE voltage) Uli PS: As the DF1704 will be replaced by DF1706 (192kHz 8times oversampling 24bit) I´m looking forward to make a new DAC with 4 PCM 1704´s per channel instead of 2, but thats a bit expensive __________________ 'Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny' F.Zappa

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15th January 2003, 08:18 PM	#13
Nelson Pass The one and only Join Date: Mar 2001	I don't see why you wouldn't want to simply use the I/V converter from the D1. Schematics at www.passlabs.com

15th January 2003, 08:48 PM	#14
OliverD diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany	Two suggestions why people might be afraid to build it: 1.) output capacitors 2.) high rail voltages Try it, though. It's simple, it's beautiful, and last not least it sounds good. Well, at least better than all the other designs I've stolen until now

15th January 2003, 09:19 PM	#15
Rookie diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Serbia	How about using passive I/V conversion with resistor and then amplify the voltage across this resistor with Balanced Zen Line Stage? This would be the simplest possible approach but I hope good sounding too.

15th January 2003, 09:46 PM	#17
tschrama diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The Netherlands	Jocko is gone... so now what I'm gonna do .. I guess this is a bad time to anouce a new, simple, not seen before, (non-original) idea to drastic improve the I/V stage.. I've got a feeling that I've got Jocko's trick now on my computer screen... too bad I can't share it with him... even more bad I can't measure the real performance.. and maybe it is original ... Wel .. if Jocko is alowed to not publish: so am I... AMT-freak: Your spot on about the Pass D1 circuit. My ideal I/V stage works of -/+ 5 volt, high PSSR, low THD, low parts-count, no caps.. I/m allmost there.. would you all believe that? Me ? who couldn't even understand the inverting gainclone gain-figure? I think the D1 I/V stage works very well, but the high Voltage rails make and low PSSR make it more suiteble as an add-on for the BOSOZ...good idea? But I still don't understand why he is addicted to MOSFETs. AMT-freak: how many I/V-stages have you tried .. I've published 5 or 6 of them .. most of them non-original, but some have a nice feature .. tried any? As for passive I/V stage: I didn't liked it as much as my simplest active stage? don't now why, may be due to the DAC-chip charateristics.. hmmmmmmm too much beer .. too late... goodnight, gr, Thijs

15th January 2003, 11:59 PM	#18
Mark A. Gulbrandsen diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Salt Lake City	I agree with Nelson on that one. Have you all taken a look see at the D-1 schematic. Its quite unique!! Mark

16th January 2003, 04:11 AM	#20
Nelson Pass The one and only Join Date: Mar 2001	What is interesting about the D1 I/V (besides it being the only part of the circuit I participated in) is that it simply cascodes the output of the DAC, the output being a current source looking for a virtual ground. Thus, it contributes almost no noise or distortion, and is unbelievably immune to high frequency (RF) modulation and has no feedback (just for sex appeal). Why didn't anybody think of this before? Hell if I know. It is an obvious thing in retrospect, but nobody seems to have picked up on it. I blame the educational system for cranking out "digital only" design engineers.