I just recieved a used broken unit I bought on ebay. The repair quote was $900. I foudn the quote inside; it reads:
24 Outputs $480 (is this a joke? they are like $2.00 each!)
4 Diff Ic's $80
8 drivers $50
10 resistors $10
10 caps $5.50
Labor $300
My question: If I replace all this would the only adjustment be bias? Can I do this?
24 Outputs $480 (is this a joke? they are like $2.00 each!)
4 Diff Ic's $80
8 drivers $50
10 resistors $10
10 caps $5.50
Labor $300
My question: If I replace all this would the only adjustment be bias? Can I do this?
There's a lot you can learn from something like this, but it will take courage, persistence and money.
As for the parts prices, you're looking at buying, say, 100 devices and matching them. There will be a certain number that won't make the cut. For your immediate purposes, they're waste. (Longer term, you might find yourself using them for another project.)
That said, $20 per output device would certainly annoy me.
The final choice is yours. If you fix it yourself, that's fine. If you have someone else fix it, that's fine, too. The crime would be to let it sit gathering dust, unfixed by anyone.
Grey
As for the parts prices, you're looking at buying, say, 100 devices and matching them. There will be a certain number that won't make the cut. For your immediate purposes, they're waste. (Longer term, you might find yourself using them for another project.)
That said, $20 per output device would certainly annoy me.
The final choice is yours. If you fix it yourself, that's fine. If you have someone else fix it, that's fine, too. The crime would be to let it sit gathering dust, unfixed by anyone.
Grey
I can install parts.. but as for matching.. no way.. I have no scope for starters.. Maybe I should just solder all the wires back on that the repair guy left undone and bring it in.. just so the guy isnt pissed that someone left it in a mess. I cant imagine it would cost more than $400 to fix.. this guy was a real jerk for wanting $480 for all 24 power transistors.. no to mention how likely is it both sides got taken out???
One side got so hot it burned all the anodization off the the heat sink!!!! One fuse assembly has a huge resitor burned off of it!
My unit has internal fuses as well as external.. this one I do not think has them.. hmmmm
One side got so hot it burned all the anodization off the the heat sink!!!! One fuse assembly has a huge resitor burned off of it!
My unit has internal fuses as well as external.. this one I do not think has them.. hmmmm
Attachments
Hi barchetta,
Grey has a point, a very good point that you missed.
Firstly, do not do anything. The tech wants it in that state. It will cost you more if you play with it. Rightly so.
Second, how do you figure you can price it when you do not know what you are doing?
Third, you should repair it (properly). Buy and match all those parts. Buy the equipment you need and spend the time. Let me know once you are done if the job wasn't worthwhile. That tech has a family and has to eat and live. He can not charge the labour at cost. I'm betting that you spend more if you get it fixed.
I'm not saying the job is a little high or not as I can't see what shape it's in. Pictures will not tell me everything either. I can tell you this amp will take the guy a day to do. He has overhead and he is not taking home the labour. If he's lucky, he'll take home $100 for the day's work less taxes. That's if he's good.
-Chris
Grey has a point, a very good point that you missed.
Firstly, do not do anything. The tech wants it in that state. It will cost you more if you play with it. Rightly so.
Second, how do you figure you can price it when you do not know what you are doing?
Third, you should repair it (properly). Buy and match all those parts. Buy the equipment you need and spend the time. Let me know once you are done if the job wasn't worthwhile. That tech has a family and has to eat and live. He can not charge the labour at cost. I'm betting that you spend more if you get it fixed.
I'm not saying the job is a little high or not as I can't see what shape it's in. Pictures will not tell me everything either. I can tell you this amp will take the guy a day to do. He has overhead and he is not taking home the labour. If he's lucky, he'll take home $100 for the day's work less taxes. That's if he's good.
-Chris
I can price a power transistor.. 24 of them are not $480.. this did NOT include labor.. I repair computer networks and I have to eat as well.. I dont need to be preached to about labor.. thanks. If someone would like to prove me wrong; fine.. but I saw them for $1.80 each.. If they are $5.00 each it still isnt right.
This amplifier is simply not worth $945. Period. I can buy a working unit for $800 and in fact mine cost $840... So there comes a point where it makes no economical sense.. which pretty much makes your point about it costing more a non-issue. Sorry; but your labor or even Mr. Pass's labor for that matter is not worth any more than I can replace it for.. okay; maybe that was a bad example; as if he repaired and signed it it would indeed be worth more.. Funny thing, my repair guy told me the same thing when we spoke.. cool guy.
Now, if this means it collects dust.. so be it.. I have some potential spare parts if needed; or it may become vintage one day and a repair more economically feasible.. I bought it knowing it may just get shelved and I am fine with that.
I will concede; the labor seems low for all this work.. so maybe he was just padding the parts..
This amplifier is simply not worth $945. Period. I can buy a working unit for $800 and in fact mine cost $840... So there comes a point where it makes no economical sense.. which pretty much makes your point about it costing more a non-issue. Sorry; but your labor or even Mr. Pass's labor for that matter is not worth any more than I can replace it for.. okay; maybe that was a bad example; as if he repaired and signed it it would indeed be worth more.. Funny thing, my repair guy told me the same thing when we spoke.. cool guy.
Now, if this means it collects dust.. so be it.. I have some potential spare parts if needed; or it may become vintage one day and a repair more economically feasible.. I bought it knowing it may just get shelved and I am fine with that.
I will concede; the labor seems low for all this work.. so maybe he was just padding the parts..
I'd rather not get any further into the "what's a fair price" debate. I'll leave that for others. I have Scottish ancestry and everything seems too expensive to me; my viewpoint is biased.
It appears from the picture that the unit has been serviced at least once before. Note that the two main power supply caps are different colors.
As for the heatsink and anodizing, bear in mind that long term exposure to sunlight will do a number on black anodizing. It fades over time.
I'm not trying to be mean or anything...just wondering...if you knew the amp was toast...and knew that you didn't have an oscilloscope...and knew that it would need matched parts to repair it, etc...why did you buy it? Perhaps I missed a post on this somewhere, but I'm not sure I follow what the game plan was supposed to be.
Grey
It appears from the picture that the unit has been serviced at least once before. Note that the two main power supply caps are different colors.
As for the heatsink and anodizing, bear in mind that long term exposure to sunlight will do a number on black anodizing. It fades over time.
I'm not trying to be mean or anything...just wondering...if you knew the amp was toast...and knew that you didn't have an oscilloscope...and knew that it would need matched parts to repair it, etc...why did you buy it? Perhaps I missed a post on this somewhere, but I'm not sure I follow what the game plan was supposed to be.
Grey
Hi barchetta,
Yet another computer guy!
Yes, I am being sarcastic. This is because I recognized your dismissal of any skill required to do this job. I have an acquaintance that sounds just like you. He is a systems programmer and fancies himself a hardware guy. I haven't talked to him in years due to this.
You should give this amp away without touching it and head to BestBuy for a feature filled unit unless you get past the tone and read what information you have been given thus far.
If you are still with me by now, please read.
You need to buy first rate parts, not the cheapest. If they are second source you need to buy the current part. $2.00 they ain't.
You are not buying 24 transistors. I can't remember what the part number is off hand, please refresh my memory. Anyway, you are buying in excess of 48 transistors. Then you are matching these by hand.
You are ordering these parts from probably two to three vendors. You have to figure out where. You have to match other parts as well
Once you have got everything you need to clean the old boards and heatsinks up, then remount the new matched parts with ............
Oh yeah. Proper new heatsink grease and new mica insulators. Once the new parts have been assembled and the correct torque (you didn't know ??) and soldered in the proper order, you can install the other bits. Now it's time to test and make sure there are no other problems. Hate to see all those new parts get fried. Oops!
So now you have it running. You do not know if it's oscillating and can't troubleshoot because you have no 'scope. Do you have a good meter? I mean actually good for electronic servicing, not testing batteries?
Now assuming you've done a good job and it's running, how long did all this take you? What is your time worth if you were fixing it for someone else?
Now for that old $800 amp you were going to buy that needs service. It's no spring chicken and this one would be like new pretty well. What did you pay for this one BTW?
One last thing. I do networking as I'm the VoIP guy. I program and install telephone systems. I also repair computer networks. Dead easy compared to some amp problems. Dead easy compared to a good telephone system install and program. Do not sell a tech's skill and knowledge short. That is my "button" and you're pushing it.
-Chris
Yet another computer guy!
Yes, I am being sarcastic. This is because I recognized your dismissal of any skill required to do this job. I have an acquaintance that sounds just like you. He is a systems programmer and fancies himself a hardware guy. I haven't talked to him in years due to this.
You should give this amp away without touching it and head to BestBuy for a feature filled unit unless you get past the tone and read what information you have been given thus far.
If you are still with me by now, please read.
You need to buy first rate parts, not the cheapest. If they are second source you need to buy the current part. $2.00 they ain't.
You are not buying 24 transistors. I can't remember what the part number is off hand, please refresh my memory. Anyway, you are buying in excess of 48 transistors. Then you are matching these by hand.
You are ordering these parts from probably two to three vendors. You have to figure out where. You have to match other parts as well
Once you have got everything you need to clean the old boards and heatsinks up, then remount the new matched parts with ............
Oh yeah. Proper new heatsink grease and new mica insulators. Once the new parts have been assembled and the correct torque (you didn't know ??) and soldered in the proper order, you can install the other bits. Now it's time to test and make sure there are no other problems. Hate to see all those new parts get fried. Oops!
So now you have it running. You do not know if it's oscillating and can't troubleshoot because you have no 'scope. Do you have a good meter? I mean actually good for electronic servicing, not testing batteries?
Now assuming you've done a good job and it's running, how long did all this take you? What is your time worth if you were fixing it for someone else?
Now for that old $800 amp you were going to buy that needs service. It's no spring chicken and this one would be like new pretty well. What did you pay for this one BTW?
One last thing. I do networking as I'm the VoIP guy. I program and install telephone systems. I also repair computer networks. Dead easy compared to some amp problems. Dead easy compared to a good telephone system install and program. Do not sell a tech's skill and knowledge short. That is my "button" and you're pushing it.
-Chris
It's kinda odd. If I go back and trace the individual posts, I can see the actual process of people getting heated up about this, but if I just read the last few posts my eyes blur and I'm no longer clear about how this got to be so emotional. It's a perspective thing, like the box drawn on a piece of paper--does the box go into the piece of paper or does it project up out of the piece of paper?
Oh, well. Things are where they are and that's that.
As I see it, these are the options:
1) Get rid of the amp. If no one else will take it, I've got a couple of Thresholds that would like the company.
2) Keep the amp and let it collect dust.
3) Keep the amp and dismember it for parts.
4) Have the amp fixed for the $900 asking price.
5) Shop around for a cheaper tech.
From my perspective, #3 is a crime. Option #2 is a somewhat lesser crime.
Options #4 and #5 are going to get back into the "how much is fair" and "is this tech any good" arguments. I'm going to stay out of that.
Option #1 depends on who ends up with the amp. It's like a puppy...like it or not, you have incurred an obligation to pass the amp to a loving home should you decide to put it up for adoption. This isn't some POS receiver you've picked up in a pawn shop, it's something with a bit of history about it. Something a cut above.
Sleep on it. Several nights, if that's what it takes. Think before taking further action.
Grey
Oh, well. Things are where they are and that's that.
As I see it, these are the options:
1) Get rid of the amp. If no one else will take it, I've got a couple of Thresholds that would like the company.
2) Keep the amp and let it collect dust.
3) Keep the amp and dismember it for parts.
4) Have the amp fixed for the $900 asking price.
5) Shop around for a cheaper tech.
From my perspective, #3 is a crime. Option #2 is a somewhat lesser crime.
Options #4 and #5 are going to get back into the "how much is fair" and "is this tech any good" arguments. I'm going to stay out of that.
Option #1 depends on who ends up with the amp. It's like a puppy...like it or not, you have incurred an obligation to pass the amp to a loving home should you decide to put it up for adoption. This isn't some POS receiver you've picked up in a pawn shop, it's something with a bit of history about it. Something a cut above.
Sleep on it. Several nights, if that's what it takes. Think before taking further action.
Grey
"If you are still with me by now, please read."
I stopped right there and didnt read another word.. All your typing, thought was a waste.. looked like several paragraphs. Post again, but I will look for your name and skim right past.. see, I have learned over the years that I do not waste my time with useless information.
I've already answed the question as to whether I knew this was a broken unit.. this will be the 4th time.
I have decided I will attempt fix the unit myself.. albeit with no help whatsoever from this group.. I am very tenacious and tend do do things people say I cannot.. example: the 1969 Porsche 911t I am fully restoring myself.
If I cannot fix it; it will be a parts bin.. and it doesnt matter to me if you guys like that or not.. not even on little bit. The $300 I paid for it is nothing to me.. Might as well have been $3.00.
Anyway, this is an odd group here.. sounds like a bunch of old ladies with nothing else to do. Some is entertaining however; like this thread... Actually this thread was a complete waste of time for me.
I stopped right there and didnt read another word.. All your typing, thought was a waste.. looked like several paragraphs. Post again, but I will look for your name and skim right past.. see, I have learned over the years that I do not waste my time with useless information.
I've already answed the question as to whether I knew this was a broken unit.. this will be the 4th time.
I have decided I will attempt fix the unit myself.. albeit with no help whatsoever from this group.. I am very tenacious and tend do do things people say I cannot.. example: the 1969 Porsche 911t I am fully restoring myself.
If I cannot fix it; it will be a parts bin.. and it doesnt matter to me if you guys like that or not.. not even on little bit. The $300 I paid for it is nothing to me.. Might as well have been $3.00.
Anyway, this is an odd group here.. sounds like a bunch of old ladies with nothing else to do. Some is entertaining however; like this thread... Actually this thread was a complete waste of time for me.
barchetta said:
I think that in every language exist adequate pronounce for your too touchy attitude
re-read thread;
re-read your first post ,and you'll certainly conclude (if you can stay to be objective) that you give only facts that you are clueless in most important areas in fixing that sort of amp.
regarding 911 refurbishing- in my neighborhood - even little child can do this.........with same amount of childish behaviour
if you wanna help-sometimes you must be prepared to be given with various opinions . that's life.
barchetta said:
This kind of attitude will get you nowhere around here. You can either take your ball and play somewhere else or appreciate the effort people are making to help you. You've been actually given some sound advice but you obviously don't have the wisdom to recognize it. It is not our problem.
Regards,
Milan
"I think that in every language exist adequate pronounce for your too touchy attitude
re-read thread;
re-read your first post ,and you'll certainly conclude (if you can stay to be objective) that you give only facts that you are clueless in most important areas in fixing that sort of amp.
regarding 911 refurbishing- in my neighborhood - even little child can do this.........with same amount of childish behaviour
if you wanna help-sometimes you must be prepared to be given with various opinions . that's life.
"
I did as you suggest and re-read my thread.. it was clear, concise, and to the point. can these parts be replaced by me with only a bias adjust in the end? Yes or ******* NO.. instead I get preached to..
Here is an example of a proper response:
Unfortunately, no, you cannot just replace those parts.. it requires matching components and much expertise beyond what you ask.. might be fun to try it; and if you are willing to throw the thing away in the end because you have damaged it beyond repair youmight go for it.. but my advice would be to leave it alone and bring it on in to your favorite repair guy..
See.. now thats called a nice helpful response..
Read it..
Now read it again..
one more time..
Got it? Doubt it.
UNsubscribed.
re-read thread;
re-read your first post ,and you'll certainly conclude (if you can stay to be objective) that you give only facts that you are clueless in most important areas in fixing that sort of amp.
regarding 911 refurbishing- in my neighborhood - even little child can do this.........with same amount of childish behaviour
if you wanna help-sometimes you must be prepared to be given with various opinions . that's life.
"
I did as you suggest and re-read my thread.. it was clear, concise, and to the point. can these parts be replaced by me with only a bias adjust in the end? Yes or ******* NO.. instead I get preached to..
Here is an example of a proper response:
Unfortunately, no, you cannot just replace those parts.. it requires matching components and much expertise beyond what you ask.. might be fun to try it; and if you are willing to throw the thing away in the end because you have damaged it beyond repair youmight go for it.. but my advice would be to leave it alone and bring it on in to your favorite repair guy..
See.. now thats called a nice helpful response..
Read it..
Now read it again..
one more time..
Got it? Doubt it.
UNsubscribed.
Seems to me that your idea of a "proper response" is not so very far off what I actually wrote.
Too bad you were thowing a snit and couldn't bother to read it.
Matching components is really quite doable. You'll find that a simple "how do you match transistors?" will suffice. That would be a nice reasonable question.
Grey
P.S.: Look, I'm real sorry that you went off half-cocked and bought an amp that is beyond your (current...yes, you can learn how if you put your mind to it) ability to repair, but don't take out your frustration on others because they're not telling you what you want to hear. It's immature, annoying, and hardly the way to get people to help you.
Tenacity is a useful trait. I'm sure everyone here is very impressed that you're rebuilding an old Porsche. Many people here also happen to work on cars--I used to, for instance. But amps aren't like cars. You can't swap transistors the way you can spark plugs. Transistors are far more delicate and, unfortunately, aren't as consistent from device to device as simple metal objects like exhaust manifolds. It's the nature of the beast. Realize that, and you'll have taken a very useful first step towards fixing your amp.
Too bad you were thowing a snit and couldn't bother to read it.
Matching components is really quite doable. You'll find that a simple "how do you match transistors?" will suffice. That would be a nice reasonable question.
Grey
P.S.: Look, I'm real sorry that you went off half-cocked and bought an amp that is beyond your (current...yes, you can learn how if you put your mind to it) ability to repair, but don't take out your frustration on others because they're not telling you what you want to hear. It's immature, annoying, and hardly the way to get people to help you.
Tenacity is a useful trait. I'm sure everyone here is very impressed that you're rebuilding an old Porsche. Many people here also happen to work on cars--I used to, for instance. But amps aren't like cars. You can't swap transistors the way you can spark plugs. Transistors are far more delicate and, unfortunately, aren't as consistent from device to device as simple metal objects like exhaust manifolds. It's the nature of the beast. Realize that, and you'll have taken a very useful first step towards fixing your amp.
Self Appointed Audio Repair God's
You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of hand-wringing old women (no offense intended to our female members).
THE GUY WANTED TO LEARN HOW TO FIX HIS AMP!
He didn't come to the DiyAudio site to be told he couldn't do it and to take it to a tech...
What happened to encouraging and guiding someone through the process?
And no, that amp is not difficult to fix and you guys know that.
Give me a break!
You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of hand-wringing old women (no offense intended to our female members).
THE GUY WANTED TO LEARN HOW TO FIX HIS AMP!
He didn't come to the DiyAudio site to be told he couldn't do it and to take it to a tech...
What happened to encouraging and guiding someone through the process?
And no, that amp is not difficult to fix and you guys know that.
Give me a break!
Hi Steve,
Well, that's not exactly it.
I came down hard on him for a couple reasons. I don't think I've ever "talked" to anyone that way before. I was very clear on the why and tried to give him something to think about.
Too strong - maybe. This fella does have the wrong idea and I'm afraid he will destroy that classic. There is no value in it for him.
-Chris
Well, that's not exactly it.
I came down hard on him for a couple reasons. I don't think I've ever "talked" to anyone that way before. I was very clear on the why and tried to give him something to think about.
Too strong - maybe. This fella does have the wrong idea and I'm afraid he will destroy that classic. There is no value in it for him.
-Chris
Re: Self Appointed Audio Repair God's
You can't be serious! I'm afraid you're grossly mistaken if you honestly believe that anything can be fixed by anybody with a little help from the forum(s), particularly if "anybody" happens to be a complete newbie with an attitude and "anything" is a very complex and valuable piece of equipment.
Anyways, barchetta was given good advice but he couldn't be bothered to give it a proper thought. That's not the type of behavior expected of a guy who really wants to learn.
If you think this particular amp is not difficult to fix, I invite you to share your superior know-how and experience for everyone's benefit.
Regards,
Milan
Apogee said:
You can't be serious! I'm afraid you're grossly mistaken if you honestly believe that anything can be fixed by anybody with a little help from the forum(s), particularly if "anybody" happens to be a complete newbie with an attitude and "anything" is a very complex and valuable piece of equipment.
Anyways, barchetta was given good advice but he couldn't be bothered to give it a proper thought. That's not the type of behavior expected of a guy who really wants to learn.
If you think this particular amp is not difficult to fix, I invite you to share your superior know-how and experience for everyone's benefit.
Regards,
Milan
Anatech - Understood.
However, the point is that's not a call that you, I or anyone else is entitled to make.
He bought it because he respected Nelson and wanted that amp. He also knew it was broken when he bought it.
He wanted to try fixing himself so he could learn something.
With the talent on this forum, we could have easily guided him through the process.
Yes, it might have cost him more money in the long run than taking it somewhere. So what? It's his money, and if he's excited by the prospect of learning, then more power to him.
I would have suggested that he stick it in the closet for a little while and first try building a Zen or something simple to get his feet wet. Then, once that was done have him tackle this. If he insisted on jumping in straight-away then so be it and we could have helped him with it.
Instead, now we have someone who was excited about our hobby that has been turned off by the attitudes on this board.
That, to me, is a shame.
However, the point is that's not a call that you, I or anyone else is entitled to make.
He bought it because he respected Nelson and wanted that amp. He also knew it was broken when he bought it.
He wanted to try fixing himself so he could learn something.
With the talent on this forum, we could have easily guided him through the process.
Yes, it might have cost him more money in the long run than taking it somewhere. So what? It's his money, and if he's excited by the prospect of learning, then more power to him.
I would have suggested that he stick it in the closet for a little while and first try building a Zen or something simple to get his feet wet. Then, once that was done have him tackle this. If he insisted on jumping in straight-away then so be it and we could have helped him with it.
Instead, now we have someone who was excited about our hobby that has been turned off by the attitudes on this board.
That, to me, is a shame.
Now, now, boys, let's settle down.
A few items:
First, it is not necessary to match the transistors in a 400A.
Secondly, it is probable that only a couple of parts are damaged
(if any), and they are most likely output devices.
Third, it is possible for Barchetta to repair this amplifier if he and
we exhibit some patience and plod through it step by step.
Who knows, we might learn something....
So let's start with the first step:
How do we know this unit is broken?
A few items:
First, it is not necessary to match the transistors in a 400A.
Secondly, it is probable that only a couple of parts are damaged
(if any), and they are most likely output devices.
Third, it is possible for Barchetta to repair this amplifier if he and
we exhibit some patience and plod through it step by step.
Who knows, we might learn something....
So let's start with the first step:
How do we know this unit is broken?
Hi Steve,
I agree with you completely until you get to the part of this particular person. Please read the extensive help we've given many other people.
Everyone here has put forth an effort to help new members. I would invite you to search my posts just to see where I'm coming from.
In closing (I have replied to your Adcom post to help you out ), I've trained many technicians in audio service. I'm not perfect, but I gave barchetta a chance to wake up. Yes, I was rough on him but I did tell him what he had to do and I wasn't talkng out of my hat. I do exactly as I've posted here. The advice was real and helpful.
I have attempted to train guys with his personality before. It does not work out well. Anyway, his loss and we couldn't help him from the start.
-Chris
I agree with you completely until you get to the part of this particular person. Please read the extensive help we've given many other people.
Everyone here has put forth an effort to help new members. I would invite you to search my posts just to see where I'm coming from.
In closing (I have replied to your Adcom post to help you out
), I've trained many technicians in audio service. I'm not perfect, but I gave barchetta a chance to wake up. Yes, I was rough on him but I did tell him what he had to do and I wasn't talkng out of my hat. I do exactly as I've posted here. The advice was real and helpful.I have attempted to train guys with his personality before. It does not work out well. Anyway, his loss and we couldn't help him from the start.
-Chris