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Old 5th November 2006, 05:10 PM   #1
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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(not much to do with the 750..but...)
what we want, more than anything, is a regulation stage of some sort that is completely passive, thus removing the effects of transistor noise and transient modulation in the PS rail, if properly done. Only then will you hear properly done transients, for the first time in your life. You might find it a bit screechy, as we have become accustomed to greyness, haze, etc, as an excuse for a complex transient chracteristic. I expect the opposite might be true, in some cases, as like when a superior capacitor is used, the HF drops in 'noticability' as time based smear is cleared up. (signal x time= db level, to the human ear-in the microtransient sense) it does not matter the level of regulation that the given regulator is speced at, it's the fact that the signal does bounce around on that power rail regardless of what regulator is used. That lously 0.01% or better of PS modulation (after regulation) IS the entire issue. Part of the proof of that, is that these 0 to lightspeed highly regulated-(1 billion regulators) zillion dollar pre-amps out there, still sound like total hazy irritating shite.

A leveraged system of some sort, that uses the odd zener, tied to a secondary current replenishment stage. Keep the whole thing at lightspeed, by having zero active components in the thing, except for the zeners. Maybe no zeners. Maybe bury the zeners, under inductors. As for active..damn transistor feedback stuff. bad for good tunage.

I've got something stirring in the back of my brain on this one. It will pop out when it wants to. Anyone care to point to such, if it is around now, and I'm just behind the times? I need something to stare at to make the muse work.
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Old 5th November 2006, 08:29 PM   #2
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Hi Ken,


-Chris
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Old 5th November 2006, 09:42 PM   #3
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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Chris:

It would sort of be the polar opposite of the circuit I showed you (when I was at your place ) that seems to be 'dynamically phase shifting' micro transients according to the circuit load. That one works, so this might work as well. I just gotta figure it out. 90% of the information required to figure that one out is missing in this conversation, so it would be tough stumble onto it.

What I am talking about here, is to use the zener or similar, possibly high resistance, under the inductor -going to ground, but have the inductor as mass stabilizaton in a paralell line with the PS rail. Seems stupid as driving nails with wet spagetti on first take, but some combination thereof , all passive. It's slowly coming clear.

Newman used the collapsing field established in an open ended inductor circuit for his experiments and patents *, and similar may work here, for rail stabilization. It might be possible to use it in conjunction with active regulation, to fix that small problem with recovery in the active circuit of the regulator, ie the feeback time constants. The inductor would excell in such use, properly attache to the circuit, of course. The usual place for an inductor is series, but in this case an use, it would be more like a parallel reluctant capacitor. I'm sure folks would think this is stupid as the day is long, but I say, "hey, not so fast". Inductors have mass (storage) considerations involving time, so they may be of use, properly employed. Capacitors obviously work, and would need to be there for buffering the normal aspects, but a properly applied inductor might beat out a capacitor, when it comes to micro transient current issues. Purveyors of tubes are fond of their choke supplies for a reason.

Remember what happens when a capacitor sits with it's ground not coupled, in circuit. Put an inductor there, and think it through. Then keep going.

* What Newman would do, is use huge inductors, 900lbs or more. He would connect the charge circuit,and then disconnet in so sshort a time that the circuit would only organize the electrons, but not actually pass current. Just before the electons were all lines up and ready to pass current....he'd disconnect the charge circuit, the field would collapse, and before it collapsed, he'd switch to connecting a circuit for capturing that energy. Few people realize that the electrons on the pathway must organize into a cohesive and aligned state along the entire wire,as a cohesive whole, before current conducts. Voltage leading the current field....as the organizational pathway zips up the wire until the organization is complete (reaches the other end - it takes TIME - it's a mini tsunami running for the other end of the wire), then current fields are established and current is conducted. This little tidbit is important. The field is established in the open ended conductor, and has mass via modulation. The right sized inductor, that is complementary to the feedback speed recovery issue of the regulator circuit. Yeah, that might work.
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Old 5th November 2006, 09:53 PM   #4
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Hi Ken,
Mum's the word then.

Do you have any idea how many people I'll have to kill now to keep your secret?? -Kidding

-Chris
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Old 5th November 2006, 10:19 PM   #5
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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This way, you can have over-unity technology in your preamp. Sort of. You'd be using the opposite of the known effect of capacitors being left open ended in a circuit, but the inductive version. Capacitors would cause issues. This might fix them.

Somebody make this, so I don't have to. I've got plenty of other things on my plate. Please don't try to charge me a fortune either. I hate that. I know, I know, I'm getting itchy right now, thinking of an inductor hanging off a circuit like that, all connected to nothing. It's crazy, maybe. But maybe crazy like a fox.

And perhaps that's part of the secret behind Peter Belt's doings. I don't think he had any idea why it worked, as subtle as it was. This may be why. Use a big enough inductor, and you'll likely have something. Whatever the result, it will be very telling. Negative, or positive result, both will be very educating.

The field is established in the open ended conductor, and has mass/field considertions strictly via the micro-modulation in the paralell PS rail. The right sized inductor, that is complementary to the feedback speed recovery issue of the regulator circuit. Yeah, that might work.

So an open ended inductor sticking off a circuit, right at the point where the PS enters the circuit. Something in the H range, maybe. Maybe even a open (ungrounded) cap on it's backside as a secondary experiment. That could prove interesting. A very interestng resonant circuit, bastardized into microstabilization of PS rails. I think it would prove most intersting in a tube circuit PS. Just a guess. The RF guys would know best on this one, it equates out to be something similar to a RF antenna circuit. Except we would be shoehorning it into different service.


Ah, yeah never know.
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Old 5th November 2006, 11:13 PM   #6
Cobra2 is offline Cobra2  Norway
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Default Psu

Something like this?

Arne K
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Old 5th November 2006, 11:24 PM   #7
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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It looks interesting, and potentially useful, but the whole idea is to stay way from the time issues of the transistor and transistor noise if possible. If you guys can use it, then use it, and use it well. Inductors in active circuits in the way you have proposed may work incredibly well too. Maybe better. Who knows.

In all seriousness, the large majority of you guys will know far better than I. I have spent little energy on circuit design, and know little about it. I couldn't design an active circuit if you put a gun to my head and seiously threatend to kill me.

I will literally visualize the flow of energy in the circuit drawing and figure out if it is useful or not.

What I have spent all my energy on, is the minutae of materials science, at the subatomic or atomic level. Wave/particle,and it's applicaction in audio, in this case. Nature of reality, etc. No schooling, just a good feel for it, and a lack of fear for making myself look like an idiot. seems to work. I chase after fundamentals, that's where I get my kicks, as it turns out to be universal keys, instead of complex and never ending rule books. That way, the basics to everything can be put on a single page, for example.

Take the supplied schematic, and add an inductor on the output. As a designation, put xH (Henries, not millihenries) beside it. Leave the normally ground (or whatever) lead, specifically attached to NOTHING. The inductance is gradual through the inductor's wire length not instantaneous, so the thing will have an effect like a capacitor, but expressed in near light speed reluctance. Reluctance to allow the field to alter. Ie, mass reluctance. An inductor, behaving like an inductor, but specifically only at near lightspeed. Which is the whole point. Very RF...which pretty well equates to the time cosntant issues of feedback in a PS regulation circuit, or standard feeback in circuits in general, for that matter. a very bizzare regulator, designed to ONLY deal with micro changes at extreme speeds or rates of change. Inductors store energy...as we all know. Ones attached to nothing, are still full of and storing energy. Meaning, their reluctance to change, of any sort is still and always operative. As stated, the high speed micro-modulation in the PS rail, causes the inductor to react, by imposing it's will on the rail. Which is to disallow change.

This effect can obviously be utilized eleswhere. This whole thing may turn out to be wasted space, but hey, why not take a look see.
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Old 5th November 2006, 11:30 PM   #8
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Hi All,
I split this out for higher clarity in both topics.

-Chris
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Old 6th November 2006, 12:08 AM   #9
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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It's very easy to figure out if I'm screwed in the head or not. Dig through your stuff for a pair of identical H sized small signal inductors, and solder one end of them on the PS rails of your preamp or the like, and listen.

Takes about 15 minutes.

Then you'll know.

Whatever the result, it should be interesting.
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Old 6th November 2006, 01:23 AM   #10
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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Putting the two inductors hanging off on the PS rails of my counterpoint 3.1 preamp's line section... I feel like an idiot. Like the first guy who ever ate an oyster.

I used a pair of 0.5watt 10mh inductors. The first two I came arcoss.

But it seems to be doing something. Only time will tell, and maybe a handful of measurements wouldn't hurt either. I apologize, I generally don't do measurements (unless I'm working on speakers), you guys will have to do that part, if you think the whole thing has merit.

~~~~~~~~~~

Either I'm hearing clean transients..or I'm hearing time based smear. One of the two.

Yep. There's now an entire realm of subtle HF I've never really heard that way before. Or I'm messed up in the head.

Very interesting.

More testing, definitely. If it does turn out to be a workable thing, one would likely have to match the inductor characteristics to the level of basic fluctuation within the PS, on all levels.

Edit. Yes. I think that things are definitely..'faster'.
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