ZenV4 PSU noise

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PsykoK

Member
Joined 2002
I know that no the first and no the last thread about "zen4 PSU" and I apologize to create on more.

I designed 2 boards for the C-L-C filter from my Zen4 but I have a question:
-What is the best choice between these 2 boards to have less noise around it?

Why this question?
Because on of this board would be under the Zenv4 board!

I plan to use the following parts to build this board
- Aerovox ALP22 10000uF 63v
- Wima MKP10 4.7n
- 2.2mH air-core inductor ( 0.60 ohm, 300W)

capaboard_v2.gif



capaboard_v3.gif



I think that the 2nd solution is a litel better because caps are equally distributed on either side of the inductor.
 
Nelson Pass

Nelson Pass

The one and only
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Depends on the ripple rating of the caps. Often, most of the
caps must be used in the first bank because the ripple
current is high. Figure on a ripple current rating 4 times
the DC draw of the circuit, and parallel enough caps to
get that figure. The remainder can go after the inductor.
 
A

aaronpiet

Member
Joined 2002
Ripple current

my zen v4 pair in test is running now with only one cap after the bridge, it's a 10.000uF / 63 V SIKOREL and I have absolutely no audible hum on my speakers. The SIKOREL run up to 125°C!
This cap has a ripple current of 30A at 100Hz at 85°C!, in comparison with normal caps which have between 5 and 10A.
One sikorel in Germany is about 25€, the others between 5 and 10€. On the cap I have seen a ripple current of 2V peak to peak, stabilized I see 10mV - the same value as described in Zen Part3. My zen has no R1, means that it has about 2.6A current.
 
chris ma

chris ma

Member
Joined 2001
ca.geocities.com/chrismaatnetcom_ca/The_Butcher_Page.html
Don't really mean to thread jack here but I have a quick question wanted to ask for a long time. How do one measure the ripple voltage for a capacitor when the amp is running? Last time I tried, the prob of my MMeter also welded to the leg of the cap, when I set the dial of the meter to measure AC across the terminals of a cap. A real newbie question.

Regards,
Chris
 
J

joensd

Member
Joined 2002
Hi Chris,
is it possible, that you tried to measure ac-current instead of ac-voltage? I have done the measurements on a scope.
Peter
Click to expand...
If I understand you correctly this (measuring AC-Current over cap terminals)would have created a big short. Ouch:bigeyes:

The scope is definitely the nicest way to check ripple but a good True RMS meter would do the job likewise.


Jens
 
P

PsykoK

Member
Joined 2002
chris ma said:
Yes, stupid of me, I tried to read/learn from books and magazines, but they don't normally tell you practical things like these. Anyway thanks for all your answers, scope is the right tool then; enough for me here intruding.

Sorry PsykoK.

Regards,
Chris
Click to expand...

No problems!
Your question were good and interest me too .


I check the datasheet from my caps and I found that :
D.C. leakage current
After application of rated d.c. voltage for 5 minutes at 20°C,
the d.c. leakage current shall not exceed
(0.006 Cr Ur) µA. Where Cr is the rated capacitance in µF and
Ur is the rated d.c. voltage.
Click to expand...

But for the moment I can't found any other technical data about these sort of caps!


An other solution ofr me is to use an other sort of caps from Vishay Roederstein :EYN07CB510J02 (10 000uF 63v)
They have very interisting spec:
ESR@120Hz : 0.035 ohm
Z@10KHz : < 0.030 ohm
Ir @120Hz, 85°: 5.3 A

The Ir is mabe to slow?
 
J

joensd

Member
Joined 2002
Yes, stupid of me, I tried to read/learn from books and magazines, but they don't normally tell you practical things like these. Anyway thanks for all your answers, scope is the right tool then; enough for me here intruding.
Click to expand...

Doing mistakes is not really stupid but helpful (and maybe dangerous) to gain experiences.
Don´t ask me how often I experienced the effect of different voltages in a TV.
150VDC causes a little burned mark on your finger.
Anode-voltage (20-30kV) is equivalent to 10 cups of strong coffee...........:Ouch: :Ouch: :Ouch: :Ouch: :Ouch:

the Roederstein CAPS are ok, but you will need two of them per channel.
Click to expand...
Aaronpiet: Are the caps worth the money? I´ve seen recommendations for use in audio equipment but never ordered due to the high price?

Jens
 
S

stadams

Member
Joined 2002
Sikorel Caps.

aaronpiet, I am envious of that capacitor.

I have seen nothing but excellent reviews of these capacitors. I have been looking for these caps in the US, unfortunately without any luck. It seems that you guys in Europe have an easy time finding these types of high end components.

Do any of you know of a company that will ship to the U.S. that stocks the Sikorel series of capacitors? And since I am not yet multi-lingual, English speaking also?

Thanks,
 
V

vpharris

Member
Joined 2001
Just to make sure it's clear....

In Chris's case-

The mistake was that current, you know, is a "through" variable. It passes through circuits, so you have to put a meter in series to read it. And of course, for the meter to have no effect on the operation of the circuit, it appears as zero resistance.

Voltage is an "across" variable. It occurs between two different nodes in the circuit, and is measured from one (the reference) to another ( so, in parallel with the circuit).

So, you can read the voltage across the cap terminals, or the current through the cap, but don't try to read the current across the cap!
 
A

aaronpiet

Member
Joined 2002
jens,
i think the price is ok, because you pay about 1 € or $ per Ampere-Ripple-current for all of these Caps 10mF/63V (one of the Black-Gates cost 200€!?!).
If you build an Aleph 4 you need heatsinks for about 300€, Transformer for 150€, Semiconductors and Res., Case and so on for about 400€. the Price of 12 to 16 Caps is about 300€ to 400€.
I think thats it's a good relation.
The advantage of the SIKOREL is, that they are nearly 'unkaputtbar'.

stadams,
i have bought them in germany at www.buerklin.com, this side is only in german. Sorry, for US i have no idea in the moment. But if you like, I could try further.
 
P

PsykoK

Member
Joined 2002
aaronpiet said:
the Roederstein CAPS are ok, but you will need two of them per channel.
the link for the epcos(siemens) SIKOREL is here:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/20/30/db/alu_01/01090117.pdf
Click to expand...

Your future amp look very nice! ;)
Can you give me a link in Germany to by this sort of caps?
I found Siemens B41550 caps by www.radiospares.fr for 46,98€,it 's too expensive! :bawling:
For this price I can get 3 Roederstein or Aerovox caps :rolleyes:

Before choosing Aerovox ALP22 I planed to use 4 Roederstein CAPS per channel, mabe 8!
I choose Aerovox caps because I can mount it on a PCB.

I found the right datasheet for Aerovox ALP22 10000uF 63v:
Dimension :40x55
ESR @20°, 100Hz: 42 mOhm
Z @10k, 20° : 38 mOhm
Ir @100Hz, 85° : 5.40

Then the Roederstein seems not better than Aerovox caps and it has a longer life expectancy. In this case I think I would stay on my first choice with Aerovox caps!

An other thing, I think that 10000uF is a too low value for for a power amp, 30000 is a mini to get enought power!



joensd> The Roederstein caps are not so expensive, you can look for 10000uF 63v (unite price: 8,85€) by reichelt.de :
http://www.reichelt.de/artikel.html?PZc25qwQAQsAABBSEQ0+B316
 
S

stadams

Member
Joined 2002
aaronpiet,

Thank you for the offer. However, after using Alta Vista's BabelFish to translate Buerklin's website, I found that they did not stock the value that I am looking for (B41554 47000uF). If you any other ideas would you please share?

By the way, how does the ZV4 sound?

Thanks again,
 
J

joensd

Member
Joined 2002
i think the price is ok, because you pay about 1 € or $ per Ampere-Ripple-current for all of these Caps 10mF/63V (one of the Black-Gates cost 200€!?!).
If you build an Aleph 4 you need heatsinks for about 300€, Transformer for 150€, Semiconductors and Res., Case and so on for about 400€. the Price of 12 to 16 Caps is about 300€ to 400€.
I think thats it's a good relation.
The advantage of the SIKOREL is, that they are nearly 'unkaputtbar'.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you´re right in saying the relation is good.
But still it´s more than twice as expensive as a BC-Components cap.
I think I am gonna try them anyway.
( I like caps that are "indestructible" (unkaputtbar)

BTW: I read about the Sikorel caps being one of the fastest caps.
Do we really need/want this for audio applications?

Thanks for all the recommendations

Jens
 
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