Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Pass Labs

Pass Labs This forum is dedicated to Pass Labs discussion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st September 2006, 10:27 PM   #21
Zen Mod is offline Zen Mod  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Zen Mod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: ancient Batsch , behind Iron Curtain
what's temp of these barbecue bars?
__________________
my Papa is smarter than your Nelson !
tnx to clean thread ; Cook Book ; PSM LS Cook Book ; Baby Diyaudio FORUM ; Mighty ZM's Bloggg;I'm dumb ; Papatreasure
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2006, 12:39 AM   #22
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Dallas, Texas
Default square wave stuff

First - thanks AndrewT and Mad_K for looking at my wattage calculations.

Now for the square wave stuff. Mad_K was right that the bypass caps
made no difference for the square wave (or at least the square wave at
20KHz).

After looking at the Aleph 30 schematic (in the Zen Mod posting), I took a
guess at tried a 10pf, 12pf, and 15pf mica cap around R2. This also
seemed to make no difference in the 20KHz square wave. I did connect
and test a Harmon Kardon Citation 16 amplifier. I used the same
methodology as I used on the Zen 5, and the Citation produced a very
nice 20KHz square wave. So I think my method of testing is ok.

I guess I'm curious about _why_ the 20KHz square wave is not so
square. I would have expected this amp to be able to reproduce higher
frequencies than this. Are my expectations unrealistic? Should I care
about this at all? If I should care, what do I do about it?

thanks,
Robert
Attached Images
File Type: jpg zen5_boxes002.jpg (39.7 KB, 474 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2006, 12:56 AM   #23
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Dallas, Texas
Quote:
Originally posted by Zen Mod
what's temp of these barbecue bars?

Well, I do not believe my meter measures aluminum correctly. However,
I believe that when idling, the steady temp is about 50-55C. When playing
music, the steady state temp is between 40 and 45C.

-- Robert
Attached Images
File Type: jpg zen5_boxes001.jpg (41.4 KB, 438 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2006, 01:35 AM   #24
Zen Mod is offline Zen Mod  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Zen Mod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: ancient Batsch , behind Iron Curtain
and what's exact schematic of yours aleph?
somewhere (probably in input LTP) you have wimpy current,or....what type of output mosfets you use and how many?
for test-try disconnecting pair of output mosfets (re-set overall current) and then look have you any changes in squares....

btw-is the same case exactly with both channels?
second btw-you can try to disconnect AC modulation of CCS (220UF cap) ,to help us in determining what part is responsible for this rounding- CCS or "active" half of output.
when I think a little ,you can try this first,disconnecting pairs of mosfets second
__________________
my Papa is smarter than your Nelson !
tnx to clean thread ; Cook Book ; PSM LS Cook Book ; Baby Diyaudio FORUM ; Mighty ZM's Bloggg;I'm dumb ; Papatreasure
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2006, 03:19 AM   #25
Formerly "jh6you". R.I.P.
 
Babowana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: square wave stuff

Quote:
Originally posted by audiorob


I guess I'm curious about _why_ the 20KHz square wave is not so
square. I would have expected this amp to be able to reproduce higher frequencies than this. Are my expectations unrealistic? Should I care about this at all? If I should care, what do I do about it?

The rounding off looks somewhat too much at 20kHz. Do you have the square wave at 100kHz, too? I think that the rounding off is mainly due to internal capacitance on the signal path combined with resistance, which form a kind of integrator so that high frequecy roll off starts too early. Probably, you need to carefully look into whether there is any additional internal capacitance in the signal path . . . accidently added . . .
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2006, 08:45 AM   #26
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Scottish Borders
Hi,
the input filter will round off the HF square waves.
It is normal to inject test waveforms after the input filter. However some amplifiers become unstable when the input is loaded this way.

I see your sample rate is 1Mb/S. This is far too slow to detect oscillation. You only have about 24 samples per half wave. Is this a clue to the rounding? Software taking a guess at what it thinks it should show you?
__________________
regards Andrew T.
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2006, 04:07 PM   #27
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Dallas, Texas
Quote:
Originally posted by Zen Mod
and what's exact schematic of yours aleph?
somewhere (probably in input LTP) you have wimpy current,or....what type of output mosfets you use and how many?
<snip>

btw-is the same case exactly with both channels?
<snip>

This is a Zen 5 (complementary Zen), that was built exactly as specified (to the
best of my ability) in Nelson's paper, with the following exceptions:

1) Almost all of my resistors are 1/2 watt, not 1/4 watt. R1 and R2 are 1/4 watt.
All resistors are 1%. R7 and R8 are matched. R5 and R6 are matched.
2) R9-R10 were replaced by a single 0.27 ohm 15W resistor, as well as R11-R12.
These are also matched.
3) The power supply caps C4-C9 are 40,000uF.

For completeness sake:
The transformers are 1KVA, 30V secondaries. I am regulating the power
supply rails at +/- 30V. The power supply uses aluminum bus bar, and 12
gauge wiring, except for the voltage regulation section. I used 16ga. wire to
the voltage regulation transistors drain and source, and 24ga. wire to the gates.
I used 16ga wire from the power supply to the amplifier board. I think I have
posted pictures of the power supply before putting them into boxes, but let
me know if we need more.

The amplifier circuit uses point to point wiring, and is half the size of Nelson's
schematic of the circuit (Fig. 3). I do use terminal blocks to connect the
transistors to the circuit, for power to the circuit, and for the input. I used
24ga wire for the inputs, and 16ga wire for the output. All wiring is stranded
copper, and are reasonably short lengths.

The transistors are IRFP240 and 9240's (one of each for amplification, one
of each for voltage regulation).

Yes, the square waves traces look the same between the left and right
channels (on the bright side, I'm consistant!). I do not know what an "input
LTP" is, so I don't know how to address that issue.

Here is a picture of the board, mounted on the heat sink, and connected
to the FETs. The wires to the FETs are about 2.5 inches long. The heat sink
is 12 inches tall by 19.5 inches wide. The board is about 3 inches by 5 inches.

thanks,
Robert
Attached Images
File Type: jpg zen5_boxes012.jpg (27.8 KB, 336 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2006, 04:23 PM   #28
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Scottish Borders
Hi,

S P A C E D out, man!

would it help if the board was quarter of the area? 50mm by 60mm.

Should the FET gate resistors be attached to the gates?
NOT tens of cm away. The resistor body should be electrically within a few millimetres of the gate exit from the plastic package.

Is this the heatsink that lies flat instead of standing up?

How thick is the backplate?
A good guide for effective heat distribution is that ten times thickness is the effective limit for heat conduction to the extremities. Any further and the heatsink efficiency falls off.
__________________
regards Andrew T.
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2006, 05:18 PM   #29
Zen Mod is offline Zen Mod  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Zen Mod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: ancient Batsch , behind Iron Curtain
Quote:
Originally posted by audiorob



This is a Zen 5 (complementary Zen), that was built exactly as specified (to the
best of my ability) in Nelson's paper, with the following exceptions:

1) Almost all of my resistors are 1/2 watt, not 1/4 watt. R1 and R2 are 1/4 watt.
All resistors are 1%. R7 and R8 are matched. R5 and R6 are matched.
2) R9-R10 were replaced by a single 0.27 ohm 15W resistor, as well as R11-R12.
These are also matched.
3) The power supply caps C4-C9 are 40,000uF.

For completeness sake:
The transformers are 1KVA, 30V secondaries. I am regulating the power
supply rails at +/- 30V. The power supply uses aluminum bus bar, and 12
gauge wiring, except for the voltage regulation section. I used 16ga. wire to
the voltage regulation transistors drain and source, and 24ga. wire to the gates.
I used 16ga wire from the power supply to the amplifier board. I think I have
posted pictures of the power supply before putting them into boxes, but let
me know if we need more.

The amplifier circuit uses point to point wiring, and is half the size of Nelson's
schematic of the circuit (Fig. 3). I do use terminal blocks to connect the
transistors to the circuit, for power to the circuit, and for the input. I used
24ga wire for the inputs, and 16ga wire for the output. All wiring is stranded
copper, and are reasonably short lengths.

The transistors are IRFP240 and 9240's (one of each for amplification, one
of each for voltage regulation).

Yes, the square waves traces look the same between the left and right
channels (on the bright side, I'm consistant!). I do not know what an "input
LTP" is, so I don't know how to address that issue.

Here is a picture of the board, mounted on the heat sink, and connected
to the FETs. The wires to the FETs are about 2.5 inches long. The heat sink
is 12 inches tall by 19.5 inches wide. The board is about 3 inches by 5 inches.

thanks,
Robert
you know for proverb "short circuit between two earphones" ?
that's exactly what happened to me-I meant all the time on Aleph 5..........
I'll see Zen5 schmtic and rethink.....


btw- tip regarding gate stoppers is worthwhile
__________________
my Papa is smarter than your Nelson !
tnx to clean thread ; Cook Book ; PSM LS Cook Book ; Baby Diyaudio FORUM ; Mighty ZM's Bloggg;I'm dumb ; Papatreasure
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2006, 05:26 PM   #30
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Dallas, Texas
Default Re: Re: square wave stuff

Quote:
Originally posted by Babowana



The rounding off looks somewhat too much at 20kHz. Do you have the square wave at 100kHz, too? I think that the rounding off is mainly due to internal capacitance on the signal path combined with resistance, which form a kind of integrator so that high frequecy roll off starts too early. Probably, you need to carefully look into whether there is any additional internal capacitance in the signal path . . . accidently added . . .

I have not tried 100kHz. 20kHz is the highest that I tried.

Thanks Babowara, it was my thought too that some type of RC circuit was
causing the rounding. Here are some things that I know could cause more
resistance or capacitance than expected:

Cold or sloppy (generally bad) solder joints.
Long, or heavy guage wire.
Coils of wire.
Overheating wire.

I'm very much a novice at this, so I don't know if that list is exhaustive. Are
there other things I should try to find and avoid?

Now that I'm thinking about it, I do have a 16ga wire that runs from the drain
of 1 transistor to the drain of the other transistor (about a 3 inch length) with
a couple of solder connections to it (pretty much as it is depicted in the
Fig. 3 schematic in Nelson's article). I used 16ga wire there because I thought
that would be the section that has the most current. Might that be a possibility?

If it is, then surely the 12 inches (or so) of 16ga wire I use to connect the board
to the speaker bananna plugs would be a problem too. As would the test leads
on some of my probes. Maybe that is not the problem area. BTW, I tested a
40 foot length of Monster 11ga wire with 8 connectors will pass a 20kHz square
wave fairly accurately. Based on that, doesn't the 3 inch length of 16ga wire
sound unlikely to be the cause?

I would guess the maximum current the Zen 5 could deliver to the speakers
is about 3 amps. I'm guessing that I should use the smallest guage wire that
will carry 3 amps without getting too hot. Does that sound about right? Does
using 16 to 24ga stranded wire on this project sound reasonable?

And thinking about that, this project is so small, and the parts are so close
together that I only used about 3 wires on the board. The parts are pretty
much soldered together by their leads. And their leads were even cut to
shorter lengths. I guess there are 6 wires that go to the transistors, but I
wasn't counting those, since they connect to the board by a terminal block
(mentioned in the last post).

Has anyone else ever tried tracing a square wave through their Zen 5? If
so, what did you get?

thanks,
Robert
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
building a sub box shovelhead 93 Car Audio 3 22nd February 2009 11:19 PM
Problems, again, with building the amp... Mlaen Solid State 74 26th April 2005 12:03 AM
Problems with building an amp...please help! Mlaen Solid State 7 11th December 2004 01:56 PM
Aleph 30 building problems.. claes Pass Labs 5 1st January 2002 02:45 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:34 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2