apassgear said:Excellent question Choky.
Hope the Master hears you…
Dear Sir,
I kindly join the "question" group about the sonic supremacy between the SL10 and NS10 (I am referring only to line stage anyway).
By instinct my choice would be the NS10 that, if I have understood well, has 0-50V single supply instead of a +/- 15V dual supply.
High voltage rails very often mean great dynamics.
A friend of mine built a basic line buffer (two bjts) with a +/- 50V dual supply.
The sound with a pot in front of it was amazing.
I am very interested in very basic (2 o 3 active devices) line stages.
If you search with my nickname beppe61 you can find a 2 bjts line stage preamp schematic with a 0-60V single supply (I would be very interested to know your opinion).
I built a simple prototype and found the sound very very good but depending (of course) on the quality of the power supply.
Just another question.
Do you know if the schematic of the NS10's thread is fully correct?
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe
Italy
apassgear said:
for me- full range driver is full range,no matter it is Bose (heresy!) in question...
even if I really don't know are they Eq-ed,they are fairly decent for size,and purpose ...
Bose even don't pretend that use Lowthers in cabs.
besides,I don't take Audio too seriously.
I take music pretty seriously,not devices
beppe61 said:
beppe-I'll try later to search for your preamps-I'm always curious (like a cat);
my question for Master of Latherall Thinking was not really serious;
I'm more interested in answer like : "NS10 is more entertainment,and SL10 is more serious....or NS10 is teenager and SL10 is old fart"....
you never know in what mood Master is,but is always fun when he feed the children.....
beppe61 said:
hehe-seems that you have some troubles with quoting;
I have same issues,so I stick to "not inline" quotas-too lazy to try something simple
my wot preamp is killer (" Death of every heared preamp"
)but-hey-fun is fun!
simetricall rails are introduced (tried) in beginning of thread(s);
better PSRR ,cleaner DC signal path etc-just to name few things
but-strictly from engineering point of view,for sonic gains I'm not so bloody sure
choky said:hehe-seems that you have some troubles with quoting;
I have same issues,so I stick to "not inline" quotas-too lazy to try something simple
That is very true indeed, Sir. Please excuse me.
> my wot preamp is killer (" Death of every heared preamp"
So you rate it above teh BOZ and the NS10 clone. Very interesting indeed. Ah the magic sound of valves !
> simetricall rails are introduced (tried) in beginning of thread(s);
better PSRR ,cleaner DC signal path etc-just to name few things
But your WOT is the evidence that a truly great line stage can be powered with a single supply PS, no ?
A lot of high-end line stage have a single supply anyway.
> but-strictly from engineering point of view,
for sonic gains I'm not so bloody sure
An that is all that counts after all : the sound !
Thank you sincerely for your really valuable and kind explanation.
Kind regards,
beppe
He guys!
I like your discussions on my item. But Beppe, is that your real name or your nick name? I live in Friesland, Netherlands and there we call grandma beppe. There is nothing wrong with a 25 year old pre, it still is outstanding. But just like old people they sometimes need some refreshment. grtz Teake. ps go on with the discussion, it's great!
I like your discussions on my item. But Beppe, is that your real name or your nick name? I live in Friesland, Netherlands and there we call grandma beppe. There is nothing wrong with a 25 year old pre, it still is outstanding. But just like old people they sometimes need some refreshment. grtz Teake. ps go on with the discussion, it's great!
beppe,I just read your posts about preamps;
even if your first reason for choosing simple stages is your lack of experience and knowledge,I think that you simply are lucky man in your quest.....
just forget measurements and trust to your ears.
your (or "your") two transistor line stage is nice,but not so nice as NS10 or SL10
trust me- I make my living funds with repairing electronic gadgets,and I saw many of them....both complicated and simple,both expensive and cheap......
cheaper ones sometimes can be sleepers or even real jewels
expensive ones sometimes can be major disappointment
NS10 and SL10 are true masterpieces,looking from engineering and also sounding angle
this is why I respect Master- honest engineer,with clear goals and perspective,and also wicked sense for humor ; some of his (even commerciall) solutions (if I can say anything about that,just because I'm not so knowledgeable in area of SS constructions) are almost bizarre simple,and that is sometimes heresy in this world.
but-when you have opportunity to see some praised and overpraised gadgets ,overengineered and overcomplicated,with mistakes in beginner's manner...what to say.......
I almost grew up with professionall equipment ,like EMT,Studer and ReVox,some other fine equipment for other purposes too.....
so I can pretty easy see what is piece of #%^&*((#*** and something harder I can see what is not piece of same stuff.....
just stick with whatever you want-SL10 or NS10
rip bloody guts from your Bryston and use what you can from it to make one decent line preamp
even if your first reason for choosing simple stages is your lack of experience and knowledge,I think that you simply are lucky man in your quest.....
just forget measurements and trust to your ears.
your (or "your") two transistor line stage is nice,but not so nice as NS10 or SL10
trust me- I make my living funds with repairing electronic gadgets,and I saw many of them....both complicated and simple,both expensive and cheap......
cheaper ones sometimes can be sleepers or even real jewels
expensive ones sometimes can be major disappointment
NS10 and SL10 are true masterpieces,looking from engineering and also sounding angle
this is why I respect Master- honest engineer,with clear goals and perspective,and also wicked sense for humor ; some of his (even commerciall) solutions (if I can say anything about that,just because I'm not so knowledgeable in area of SS constructions) are almost bizarre simple,and that is sometimes heresy in this world.
but-when you have opportunity to see some praised and overpraised gadgets ,overengineered and overcomplicated,with mistakes in beginner's manner...what to say.......
I almost grew up with professionall equipment ,like EMT,Studer and ReVox,some other fine equipment for other purposes too.....
so I can pretty easy see what is piece of #%^&*((#*** and something harder I can see what is not piece of same stuff.....
just stick with whatever you want-SL10 or NS10
rip bloody guts from your Bryston and use what you can from it to make one decent line preamp
choky said:
> beppe,
I just read your posts about preamps;
even if your first reason for choosing simple stages is your lack of experience and knowledge,I think that you simply are lucky man in your quest.....
just forget measurements and trust to your ears.
your (or "your") two transistor line stage is nice,but not so nice as NS10 or SL10
- Dear Sir,
Thank you so much for your extremely kind and valuable reply.
The schematic I uploaded is a part of the line section of an old (around 1980) commercial unit (Radford ZD22) that was chose as a reference preamp by an Italian audio magazine.
And they chose it on the basis of listening tests.
As I said I built indeed a one-channel prototype with remarkable results in terms of dynamic, soudstage reproduction and transparency.
What amazes me is the performance that could be obtained from just two bjts.
What I find "disorienting" as well it is that all the designers say that they fine-tune their creatures by means of listening sessions, nevertheless they always declare very good electrical measurements.
Why this? Why they feel the need to demonstrate the quality of their equipments with distortion figures and graphs, graphs mean nothing no?
That said I am fully convinced that Nelson Pass designs are truly exceptional (even if by instinct I would choose the NS10 for the higher voltage rails).
And obviously much better than the schematic above mentioned.
My point is that a line preamp built on the basis of the 2 bjt schema could very well be competitive with commercial line stage at a unbelievable cheap price.
I invited other DIYers to build personally a prototype to have other opinions.
Maybe I am me hearing things.
No one accepted the invitation.
Maybe it is too simple to be exciting ?
I still think it is a pity anyway.
> trust me- I make my living funds with repairing electronic gadgets,and I saw many of them....both complicated and simple,both expensive and cheap......
cheaper ones sometimes can be sleepers or even real jewels
expensive ones sometimes can be major disappointment
- that is indeed my opinion. I agree completely with your opinion.
I think that sometimes some more components are added even for marketing reasons, even if these are detrimental to sound !
But who would pay big money for an almost empty case ?
> NS10 and SL10 are true masterpieces,looking from engineering and also sounding angle.
- Honestly, no doubts about that.
I have a BOZ prototype that I find simply wonderful.
Depending on the quality of execution of the power supply its potential is very high indeed.
> this is why I respect Master- honest engineer,with clear goals and perspective,and also wicked sense for humor ; some of his (even commerciall) solutions (if I can say anything about that,just because I'm not so knowledgeable in area of SS constructions) are almost bizarre simple,and that is sometimes heresy in this world.
- He is also a Lord disclosing his knowledge very kindly to all of us.
> but-when you have opportunity to see some praised and overpraised gadgets ,overengineered and overcomplicated,with mistakes in beginner's manner...what to say ...
I almost grew up with professionall equipment ,like EMT,Studer and ReVox,some other fine equipment for other purposes too.....
so I can pretty easy see what is piece of #%^&*((#*** and something harder I can see what is not piece of same stuff.....
- are you saying that you can assess the sound quality of an equipment just looking at the schematics? Very interesting.
I still think that measurements (maybe the right ones) are a powerful tool to ***** the quality of an audio equipment.
Maybe the most interesting ones are not conventional.
Something that you do not see on the magazines, for instance, but the very talented designers know very well.
Like Time Impulse Response and so on.
But I really do not know.
> just stick with whatever you want-SL10 or NS10
- I am very interested in the NS10, the original version (single supply). That could give me the opportunity to use the same PS that I am trying to fine-tune withe the BOZ (Ok. one is 0-60V and the NS10 understand is 0-50V, one zener less or something like that).
> rip bloody guts from your Bryston and use what you can from it to make one decent line preamp
- the Bryston line stage is a discrete op-amp, even too much complicated for me.
Also the PS is nothing of remarkable: just two +/- 24V off-the-shelf fixed voltage regulators ( I do not know if they are selected ones or something. But I doubt).
I would take the 2 bjts schematic any time.
Thank you sincerely for your extremely kind and valuable reply.
Kind regards,
beppe
beppe
please-next time just skip "Thank you so much for your extremely kind and valuable reply." part
I can't see almost anything to quote,except that solely PS voltage is not necessarily only and primary responsible for good dynamic capabilities of one stage;
more often topology and execution of PS is determining factor for this
in every aspect-+-15V,as in SL10 is more than enough to blow your ears even with headphone amp,not to mention line preamp,with lees demands for current and voltage swing.
further-I didn't say that I (always ) can see quality of some gadget from schmtc-what I meant is that I can pretty easily see overall quality of apparatus itself,physically,especially when is on my workbench,waiting for repair or,God forbid!, some tweaking...
anyway-I wish you good fun with Tresholds;
just make both,they are cheap enough; when you decide what you like more-put that in the finall box;in any case ,box and other hardware costs are much bigger than for few resistors and transistors
please-next time just skip "Thank you so much for your extremely kind and valuable reply." part
I can't see almost anything to quote,except that solely PS voltage is not necessarily only and primary responsible for good dynamic capabilities of one stage;
more often topology and execution of PS is determining factor for this
in every aspect-+-15V,as in SL10 is more than enough to blow your ears even with headphone amp,not to mention line preamp,with lees demands for current and voltage swing.
further-I didn't say that I (always ) can see quality of some gadget from schmtc-what I meant is that I can pretty easily see overall quality of apparatus itself,physically,especially when is on my workbench,waiting for repair or,God forbid!, some tweaking...
anyway-I wish you good fun with Tresholds;
just make both,they are cheap enough; when you decide what you like more-put that in the finall box;in any case ,box and other hardware costs are much bigger than for few resistors and transistors
choky said:beppe
please-next time just skip "Thank you so much for your extremely kind and valuable reply." part
- Thank you. Much easier for me.
> I can't see almost anything to quote,except that solely PS voltage is not necessarily only and primary responsible for good dynamic capabilities of one stage; more often topology and execution of PS is determining factor for this
in every aspect-+-15V,as in SL10 is more than enough to blow your ears even with headphone amp,not to mention line preamp,with lees demands for current and voltage swing.
- thank you for the explanation. I did not know this.
> further-I didn't say that I (always ) can see quality of some gadget from schmtc-
what I meant is that I can pretty easily see overall quality of apparatus itself,physically,especially when is on my workbench,waiting for repair or,God forbid!, some tweaking...
- well this is true indeed.
Sometimes I see some lay-outs looking like a modern art composition.
Very impressive indeed.
> anyway-I wish you good fun with Tresholds;
just make both,they are cheap enough;
when you decide what you like more-put that in the finall box;in any case ,box and other hardware costs are much bigger than for few resistors and transistors
- I see very difficult to try to build a working clone of the NS10 without knowing the value of the supply rail voltage.
Everytime I have to face my ignorance in audio electronics basics.
Honestly I tried to learn how to calculate a basic circuit but failed miserably, unfortunately.
Thank you very much again for your very friendly and precious support.
Kind regards,
beppe
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