What's it worth???

Apogee · 26th September 2002, 08:50 PM

I'm about to purchase the fets for my Aleph-X's. Due to using parts from an existing chassis, I'd like to stay with TO3 style outputs. So, here's my question:

What is the subjective difference in sound quality between the IRF140's and 240's really worth? My inclination is to go with the 140's because they were designed for higher current... But, how noticeable is the difference?

Also from a matching perspective, I need a total of 96 matched fets. I can buy either part number all from the same lot so that will help, but how many should I buy to get 96 matched devices? I was planning on buying 150. Is that too many?

Lastly, on one hand it's only a couple of hundred bucks difference between the two... On the other hand that couple of hundred bucks directly translates to a bill going from $525 to $750 just for output devices - hence why I'm taking the time to ask...

Are the 140's really worth the extra couple of hundred bucks???? I'm figuring on using these in a biamp configuration and am planning on keeping them for a long time...

Thoughts?????????????

Thanks!!!

Peter Daniel · 26th September 2002, 08:58 PM

If you didn't see it yet, some info is here IRF 230 or IRFP 140, what's better for AlephX ? although not exactly the same devices.

How many you plan to use per channel?

Apogee · 26th September 2002, 09:03 PM

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the link... Yes, I'd already seen and have been following it...

I asked because I really hadn't seen any comparison between the two besides what was presented in the Zen articles... The problem is that the articles didn't really clearly state what the subjective differences between the devices was... At this scale, I figured it was worth asking...

I'm planning on 16 devices per channel... I figure I can dissipate ~ 700 watts per chassis and am planning on ~100 - 125 watts per channel per stereo chassis (times 3)...

kristijan-k · 26th September 2002, 09:07 PM

Hello,

Why don't you try to match them in the store ?
That way you will not end up with many unmatched transistors that will left to you after matching.

Best regards,
Kristijan Kljucaric
http://web.vip.hr/pcb-design.vip

Peter Daniel · 26th September 2002, 09:08 PM

I'm using the same numbers. You need devices matched in banks of 4. My guess is that 120 woiuld be enough to get the match.

To tell you the truth on my current AX amp I'm using TO-3 IRF 230, but if I had to start from scratch I wouldn't bother with TO-3 package. Dealing with plastic TO247 is a lot easier and more convenient for short connections and signal path. I'll be using IRFP 140 on my future projects. Check this link to see what I mean The beaty of p2p wiring

Apogee · 26th September 2002, 10:20 PM

Thanks Peter for the matching info and the link... I do remember that thread...

Did you ever finish the X that is P2P wired? I'm still curious how this design actually sounds and if the Grey's design is stable when scaled???

As far as using the IRFP packages, yes I agree they'd be far easier and considerably cheaper... Unfortunately, I have my reasons for wanting to stay with the TO3's on this project... I could make new rails for the chassis but I figure by the time I purchase the metal (the sides are 1/2" thick), cut and machine it I'd have spent the money in material, time and hassle... I'm making a concerted effort to not change the boxes too much... You'll see why when they are finished...

Thx,

Peter Daniel · 26th September 2002, 10:29 PM

P2P X is not finished. It was more of an exercise in p2p wiring and experimental ground for future p2p amps. But I will finish it one day.

So, where are you getting your TO-3 devices from?

Nelson Pass · 26th September 2002, 10:41 PM

I didn't find that the difference between the 140 and
240 to be enough to get excited about. If you are
running less than +/-25 volt rails, it is worth a little
extra to get the 040's or 044's.

The difference is greater in the Zen amps becuase they
need every ounce of gain they can get. The X and Aleph
circuits have intrinsically more gain, and are not as
dependent on the transconductance of the devices.

Peter Daniel · 26th September 2002, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kristijan-k

Why don't you try to match them in the store ?
That way you will not end up with many unmatched transistors that will left to you after matching.

I can't believe you have stores like this in Croatia.

26th September 2002, 08:50 PM	#1
Apogee diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tacoma, WA	What's it worth??? I'm about to purchase the fets for my Aleph-X's. Due to using parts from an existing chassis, I'd like to stay with TO3 style outputs. So, here's my question: What is the subjective difference in sound quality between the IRF140's and 240's really worth? My inclination is to go with the 140's because they were designed for higher current... But, how noticeable is the difference? Also from a matching perspective, I need a total of 96 matched fets. I can buy either part number all from the same lot so that will help, but how many should I buy to get 96 matched devices? I was planning on buying 150. Is that too many? Lastly, on one hand it's only a couple of hundred bucks difference between the two... On the other hand that couple of hundred bucks directly translates to a bill going from $525 to $750 just for output devices - hence why I'm taking the time to ask... Are the 140's really worth the extra couple of hundred bucks???? I'm figuring on using these in a biamp configuration and am planning on keeping them for a long time... Thoughts????????????? Thanks!!! __________________ "If I had my life to live over again, I would have made a rule to read some poetry and listen to some music at least once a week." - Charles Darwin

26th September 2002, 08:58 PM	#2
Peter Daniel diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Canada	If you didn't see it yet, some info is here IRF 230 or IRFP 140, what's better for AlephX ? although not exactly the same devices. How many you plan to use per channel? __________________ www.audiosector.com “Do something really well. See how much time it takes. It might be a product, a work of art, who knows? Then give it away cheaply, just because you feel that it should not cost so much, even if it took a lot of time and expensive materials to make it.” - JC

26th September 2002, 09:03 PM	#3
Apogee diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tacoma, WA	Hi Peter, Thanks for the link... Yes, I'd already seen and have been following it... I asked because I really hadn't seen any comparison between the two besides what was presented in the Zen articles... The problem is that the articles didn't really clearly state what the subjective differences between the devices was... At this scale, I figured it was worth asking... I'm planning on 16 devices per channel... I figure I can dissipate ~ 700 watts per chassis and am planning on ~100 - 125 watts per channel per stereo chassis (times 3)... __________________ "If I had my life to live over again, I would have made a rule to read some poetry and listen to some music at least once a week." - Charles Darwin

26th September 2002, 09:08 PM	#5
Peter Daniel diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Canada	I'm using the same numbers. You need devices matched in banks of 4. My guess is that 120 woiuld be enough to get the match. To tell you the truth on my current AX amp I'm using TO-3 IRF 230, but if I had to start from scratch I wouldn't bother with TO-3 package. Dealing with plastic TO247 is a lot easier and more convenient for short connections and signal path. I'll be using IRFP 140 on my future projects. Check this link to see what I mean The beaty of p2p wiring __________________ www.audiosector.com “Do something really well. See how much time it takes. It might be a product, a work of art, who knows? Then give it away cheaply, just because you feel that it should not cost so much, even if it took a lot of time and expensive materials to make it.” - JC

26th September 2002, 10:20 PM	#6
Apogee diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tacoma, WA	Thanks Peter for the matching info and the link... I do remember that thread... Did you ever finish the X that is P2P wired? I'm still curious how this design actually sounds and if the Grey's design is stable when scaled??? As far as using the IRFP packages, yes I agree they'd be far easier and considerably cheaper... Unfortunately, I have my reasons for wanting to stay with the TO3's on this project... I could make new rails for the chassis but I figure by the time I purchase the metal (the sides are 1/2" thick), cut and machine it I'd have spent the money in material, time and hassle... I'm making a concerted effort to not change the boxes too much... You'll see why when they are finished... Thx, __________________ "If I had my life to live over again, I would have made a rule to read some poetry and listen to some music at least once a week." - Charles Darwin


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26th September 2002, 09:07 PM	#4
kristijan-k diyAudio Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CROATIA	Hello, Why don't you try to match them in the store ? That way you will not end up with many unmatched transistors that will left to you after matching. Best regards, Kristijan Kljucaric http://web.vip.hr/pcb-design.vip

26th September 2002, 10:29 PM	#7
Peter Daniel diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Canada	P2P X is not finished. It was more of an exercise in p2p wiring and experimental ground for future p2p amps. But I will finish it one day. So, where are you getting your TO-3 devices from? __________________ www.audiosector.com “Do something really well. See how much time it takes. It might be a product, a work of art, who knows? Then give it away cheaply, just because you feel that it should not cost so much, even if it took a lot of time and expensive materials to make it.” - JC

26th September 2002, 10:41 PM	#8
Nelson Pass The one and only Join Date: Mar 2001	I didn't find that the difference between the 140 and 240 to be enough to get excited about. If you are running less than +/-25 volt rails, it is worth a little extra to get the 040's or 044's. The difference is greater in the Zen amps becuase they need every ounce of gain they can get. The X and Aleph circuits have intrinsically more gain, and are not as dependent on the transconductance of the devices.

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