DIY progress report

Well guys call me an heretic but I was a bit disappointed by the last couple of Zen versions and the schpiel about the fact that the Zens are just concepts amps. So what's the point, I say?

In about 10 more Zen versions we'll have something that resembles the commercial XA. In the mean time I'll be listening to the real deal for which, by the way, you can thank GRollins...
 
The one and only
Joined 2001
Paid Member
I suppose that one of the problems associated with freely
discussing future projects is that several of you want to jump
ahead to the ending. Well, that's OK, but if you're already there,
I don't see why should should complain if I introduce everybody
else to a slower process of discovery.

I've been fairly generous with the hints on how to get
there, and I think Grey will acknowledge my contribution to
his efforts. Stefano's XSOZ is pretty close to what I have for
a future article, and it's an excellent circuit, but it's not the
last word.

But let's get real: Zens and Alephs and X's are my intellectual
property, developed over 10 years ago. If I have to protect the
reception of my articles by shutting up, then everybody suffers.
 
I guess some people should tone down their comments a bit.

There may be a few of the members on this forum whom are way ahead of Nelson Pass (though i personally doubt it), but most of us are well aware of the fact that we are not.

So since NP have given a large number of people a great introduction to audio DIY, Id prefer that those being unhappy with NP's contributions, make a bigger or better contibution themselves.



Magura:)
 
Nelson Pass said:

I've been fairly generous with the hints on how to get
there
Sure you were; every article, be it the original Zen, the SOZ, ZV4, or any other I read, is a source of knowledge extremely well elaborated and very detailed. One can read it again and again and every time he will discover new things. I would almost say it's the ultimate source of information for everyone interested in building nice amps and learning electronics.
Please, keep them coming.

/Hugo :)
 
you can thank GRollins...

"In about 10 more Zen versions we'll have something that resembles the commercial XA. In the mean time I'll be listening to the real deal for which, by the way, you can thank GRollins..."

I'll bet Nelson is thanking him all right....... I'll remind you that the efforts of many others, including Mr. Pass, were involved in getting the circuit fleshed out and addressing issues like common mode offset and stability. Seemingly basic schematics can start a chain of post that go far beyond the origional poster's abilities and intentions. The number of "knock off PCBs" is an example of a "commercial" design being done on the back of Mr. Pass's work. Then we see Mr. Grey expressing interest in Nelson's active crossover. Now others are exploring and sharing the details that could bite into the commercial viability of future Pass Labs active crossover products (and consulting for that matter). Nelson has been more than generous in answering technical questions and writing articles on excellent amp and preamp designs. There is a saying: "Don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs." I hope everyone realizes that innocent (and not so innocent) attempts to guess what Mr. Pass is doing in his commercial designs tends to have a snow ball effect when dozens of people interact to reverse engineer his commercial products. The possibility for future loss of revenues for Pass Labs is very real. Don't forget that not everybody who reads this forum is an amateur and that not every commercial explotation of Mr. Pass's hard work and decades of research is known about here.

I invite everybody (are you listening Grey?) to think long and hard about Nelson's generosity and be very careful not to contribute to the exploitation of his hard work. There is plenty to ask him that doesn't intrude on his commercial efforts.
 
One can say one million great things about and thank someone a million times but if you only complain once that's all they can remember. ;)

There is no doubt in my or in anyone else's mind (I think) that if we can build what we can build today it is UNIQUELY thank to Mr Pass and his willingness to share. I am most definitely NOT inventing anything.

Having said that, the AX has been out of the bag for about two years now and out of childish selfishness I would have hoped for an original passdiy version earlier, that's all.

Fred,
your point is very well taken, however, I feel that personally I am completely in the clear as far as taking commercial advantage of Nelson creations but I rather feel I conform to Nelson original rationale for sharing stuff and as such I am completely guilt-free. :)
 
Re: you can thank GRollins...

Fred Dieckmann said:
I invite everybody (are you listening Grey?) to think long and hard about Nelson's generosity and be very careful not to contribute to the exploitation of his hard work.

Quite frankly I don't quite understand why Grey would be at fault (or to be blamed) for anything other than starting the biggest thread on a this forum, the thread that Mr. Pass enjoyed so much that he even funded an award for 200,000th viewer?

I even once tried to intervene and prevent somehow the first Aleph X PCB group buy (800 pcs. or so), but again, the One and Only was not against it. So why bringing it up now? We can always (moderators) prevent people from posting their work that resembles too close the original Pass products, but it seems that this is not intention of Pass Labs, so why posts like this, Fred?
 
Thanks so much for walking with the young ones!

I greatly appreciate the efforts taken in the progression of Mr. Pass's articles. Indeed an EE could probably read a couple of pages describing a method and follow it well and work up a reasonable circuit from the words alone. Mr. Pass has a writing style which is both enjoyable for me and informative enough that if I read and re-read, I can get some great pearls of wisdom, even though I am not an electronics person.

I may well never build 5% of the projects he has written about or will hopefully write about in the future. But I enjoy the better understanding of the designs and reveling in the beyond human nature of his process.

I can only hope that commercial infringement never halts the flow of information he provides without direct recourse. I also hope that all who really enjoy what he has given to them have thanked him.

Once I finally finish my first Pass designed project, I surely will. Until then, I simply thank him for opening the joy of learning about amplifiers and in the greater sense audio. Lastly, I would like to thank him for showing that a benevolent attitude is one way of leading a successful life, even in today’s society.

Sandy.
 
N.P:

Sincere thanks to you for your efforts. It's just great how the simplicity of the circuits couples with your ability to give such a good explanation. Even if I can't or don't wish to build each project, I get great enjoyment out of reading them and learn something from every one.

I'm sure that there are many thousands out there who are appreciative.
 
Pass DIY Apprentice
Joined 2001
Paid Member
I built my first Pass amp, an A40, when I was in the military, and I've been hooked ever since. It's a hobby I love and Nelson has contributed more to my understanding and enjoyment than any other in the DIY community. In fact, when I finally had the means to do so, I schlepped all the way to the Las Vegas CES to thank him personally.

I normally avoid these controversial threads, but I'm embarrassed by Grataku's comments, and If I could apologize for someone else's rudeness, I would. But since I can't, let me once again, offer my thanks to Mr. Pass for giving me many hours of education and enjoyment. We're lucky the guy's a good sport.

Sincerely,

Mike
 
The one and only
Joined 2001
Paid Member
grataku said:
One can say one million great things about and thank someone a million times but if you only complain once that's all they can remember. ;)

OK, I feel better now ;)

But seriously, how do you know a priori that an XSOZ
based on the original SOZ framework might not be the best
amplifier for a particular loudspeaker? My own experience is
that all these designs, dumb as some of them are, offer
something to somebody, often in a surprising way.

When I first did SOZ, there was opinion (on some other forum)
that I was just perpetrating a joke. Well, if you read the first
few paragraphs, it was pretty tongue-in-cheek, but still think of
it as an interesting design, and I've been surprised at how many
people built and loved it. I've always suspected that these
were people more familiar with welders and soldering irons. ;)

In any case, the SOZ really does serve as a great introduction
to X feedback, particularly for those who aren't brainiacs.
Besides that, what person with a SOZ will be able to resist
spending 5 bucks upgrading it?

So be patient, I've got 4 more ZV's to do this year, I'll have
fulfilled my commitment to Ed Dell of AE magazine, and the
Aleph X is not the last one...
 
Wow, this thread took an ugly turn!

Let us not forget the name of this Forum and who is ultimately the source of all that flows from it. We are but PASSengers on a ship that can only have one Captain. With no disrespect to any of the very fine designers on this Forum, but there would not be much of a platform for your ideas without the support of PASS Labs.

Coming from a 100% IP company (Drug Discovery), I have given much thought to why Nelson would share so much of his time and knowledge with people he know's nothing about.

In my mind he obviously feels that the exchange of information is a two way street and he occasionally takes away valuable insight himself. I think that this venue probably appeals to his basic hobbyist nature and enjoys spending time with us.

So for heavens sake let's make sure he is at all times treated like a cherished old friend who has come to our homes to spread some cheer.

I need a drink.

:bawling: :bawling:
 
The one and only
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Here's your drink. :drink:

I forgot to mention that really I don't have any problem with
you guys reverse engineering my stuff. Realistically, you can
do that whether I like it or not, and I prefer to be at the head
of the parade.....

At the same time, I have always assumed that one of the
motivations of the typical DIYer is the joy of discovering things
for one's self, and toward that end, I think it's more fun to
scatter bread crumbs along the path than to install a trolley line.

:cool:
 
zen

I have built Zens 3-5 and will build 6. I built 3 different versions of the Alephs and am on my second AX. I am no Peter Daniel but I am getting better. I am learning along the way and enjoy the amps very much. I kind of hate to finish an amp, but love to start a new one. Thanks not only to Nelson but everyone in the forum.:)
 
diyAudio Editor
Joined 2001
Paid Member
But seriously, how do you know a priori that an XSOZ

In fact, it is one of the most popular Pass amps ever.
In fact some such as Henrik Stefano and Mad K say it's about as good as it gets....

When Nelson codifies a version of an amp in writing, we have a thoughtful standard to compare the other variations to. We also know that Mr. Pass has listened to it and it has a sound that intriges him even if he might prefer some other design for a specific purpose.

Fred- Nelson has stated that the crossover is a marginal product from a business point of view anyway. He HELPED Grey develop the xAleph. (keep that in mind Grataku) Your attacks on Grey are pathetic and self serving-give it a rest and us a break. In fact, Mr. Pass's published designs spell out every detail, they DON'T leave the details for us to work out. I can't work them out. I'm well aware you THINK you can and that everyone should have to do it your way- the hard way. Well, that's not Nelson's philosophy as much as you wish it so. He gives hints to people such as you and Grey in the beginning , then later (like right now with the SOX) he spells it out for the rest of us. If he was as concerned as you go on and on about regarding intellectual property being exposed on this site, why does he then publish them only a bit later?

I'm looking forward to Mr. Pass's opinion on the overall sound quality of the amp, whether it is really necessary to have a special preamp for his version, and a clear explaination inasmuch as it is possible about how the circuit works.

What's the point? Well you don't have to build every Zen amp, but if you read about each one there is a hell of an education therein. In fact, I just checked to see if the SOX was posted and ended up reading about the previous Zen- quite informative.

Geeeeez

:mad: :mad: :mad:
 
One of the difficult aspects of electronics and circuit design is that seemingly inignificant changes in one place can cascade unexpected results throughout. One area where Nelson is unique and rare is his ability to take an aspect of circuit topology and relate it in a context where all other parts have a constancy such that the lesson can be learned without having to simultaneously think about a myriad of other issues.

We all know Nelson could have tossed us the final Zen version months or even years ago, but many of the subtleties in his lessons would be lost and the size of the audience who could follow the lessons would be greatly diminished. The Complementary Zen may not be an earth shattering advancement in audio circuitry design, but it is the clearest and most concise explanation of push-pull circuit design I've seen.

As well, the comparison of simple single ended (Original Zen) vs. simple balanced (SOZ) vs. simple push-pull (Complementary Zen) has provided the opportunity for identifying what the sound differences are between the various topologies. That alone was worth the price of admission.

So thank you Nelson for taking the long efforts to PASS it along in a way that provides the greatest impact and opportunity. (Couldn't help myself on the pun).
 
Grataku and Variac,

It may be so that Mr.Pass helped Grey develop the Aleph-X, but have you asked yourself if Grey had the moral right to post it, after all it was Mr.Pass's design ( and intellectual property ) to begin with and is a current product,
unlike the Aleph. We all got got caught up in fervor of the moment but in hindsight it might not have been such a good thing and should have waited for Mr.Pass to publish it.

It is a privilage that Mr.Pass shares so much with us but please don't assume, for one moment, it is a right.

Regards,
Jam