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Old 14th February 2004, 05:34 PM   #531
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My, my, my...
I've long been a believer in the idea that things run in cycles, be it economics, fashions in clothing, or trends in socio-political thinking. As such, it's hardly surprising that the tide here at DIY should turn. But that it should turn so quickly did catch me a bit off guard.
A quickie history of my version of the Aleph-X, for those who can't find it in the Aleph-X thread (it ain't easy, I know). The general concept first occurred to me back several years ago when Petter's X-100 thread was current. Why that thread never achieved the momentum that the Aleph-X thread did is beyond me. It looked to me as though Petter was making good progress. In any event, I was sitting there looking at Petter's proposed circuit and Nelson's patents and the idea sprang into mind that the "X" concept and the Aleph concept were not mutually exclusive. I had at least two variations in mind at the time (hint, hint...) and mentioned such in a post. As I recall, the proposal was not received kindly. Such is life. Clearly, the cycle turned later. And will turn yet again in the future, mark my words. The day will come when people say,"Aleph-X? What's that?" And the thread will be lost in obscurity.
******
Incidentally, I had, in that same thread, made a stand for Nelson's intellectual property rights, and subsequently e-mailed him directly about it. His reply was pretty much the same then that it is now. I personally interpret his words as meaning that he views DIY efforts as publicity for his commercial product. Two other possibilities are: 1) That he is curious to see if someone can find a variation that he missed. 2) That he might, just possibly, believe in the concept of "pay-forward." Caveat: His actual feelings on the matter may or may not match my understanding.
******
The circuit that I later labelled the Aleph-X lay low for a while, but I finally sat down and worked out one of the variations in my mind one slow evening at work. A few weeks later I drew up a formal schematic and sent it off to Nelson. He usually responds in a day or two, but this time a reply burned back across the wires in an hour or two.
The content? Not to release the circuit yet, because it was in some ways similar to one he was about to offer at the winter CES. After that, go ahead. And, as I said in the Aleph-X thread, he noted that I might have trouble with absolute DC offset (he later suggested using 30 ohm grounding resistors--I hadn't dared to go below 1k and had dropped the idea). At that point, I viewed the circuit as purely conceptual; I had not built a prototype. No one could have been any more astounded than I was that the concept circuit was in any way similar to viable commercial product.
A few weeks later, Nelson--not me--mentioned here that I had such a circuit and things began to build momentum. I still had yet to build a prototype. But with DIY members "clamoring" for a circuit, I started fiddling. Then, as now, time was in short supply, and I had to limit my fiddlings to an hour or two in the wee hours of the morning before going to bed.
I finally started the thread, after checking with Nelson as to whether the timing suited him. Fred, as usual, said the circuit wouldn't work. (The day he doesn't say that is the day one of my circuits will actually fail--kinda like telling an actor to "break a leg" as they head for the stage. Thanks Fred. Incidentally, he was calling himself Harry Haller then for those of you who've lost track of his personae.)
As to my crossover thread--either of them, for that matter--my intent, as I thought I made clear, wasn't to reverse-engineer Nelson's commercial product, though I do, as a practical matter, like the idea of using jumpers to set the frequencies, Q, and such. It's nothing but a Sallen-Key filter. No patents involved. Why Fred's got his panties in such a knot over that one, I can't imagine, especially as he was so intent on reverse-engineering Nelson's use of resistances. Sometimes Fred puzzles me. Clearly it's an emotional issue with him, not a logical one.
The name Xenover was suggested by the intentional simplicity of the circuit. And, no, it's not an "X" circuit per se. I doubt that anyone is going to be fooled by the difference between "Zen" and "Xeno," but just in case, I'll issue a disclaimer: It ain't Nelson's circuit. It ain't intended to be Nelson's circuit. So there.
As to the level of complexity--or lack or it--of Nelson's recent published projects, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that there are DIY folks out there who aren't members of this site. They're out in rural West Virginia, downtown Seattle, and possibly right next door to you. They think they're all alone. Every new project Nelson publishes is another step in their education. Things that members here take for granted, such as X feedback, are new and foreign to them, and they need help taking that step. Have mercy on them.
Besides, methinks I see a pattern to Nelson's papers, whether it's conscious or not. I'm content to let things run their course.

Grey

P.S.: I feel a bit uneasy about the idea that the First Watt commercial Aleph-X carries the same name as my project version. I specifically chose the name Aleph-X so as to distance my circuit from Nelson's XA nomenclature. Then along came the First Watt product with the same name. Perhaps it's one of those cyclical things.
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Old 14th February 2004, 07:11 PM   #532
grataku is offline grataku  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by GRollins
P.S.: I feel a bit uneasy about the idea that the First Watt commercial Aleph-X carries the same name as my project version.
I would feel alright. There are so few that care about this issue.
...and thanks for the refresher history course, I didn't needed it but it seems the usual few did.
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Old 14th February 2004, 08:23 PM   #533
Coulomb is offline Coulomb  England
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Boy, I do love this thread!!

Sure wish I had more to contribute than a few trite observations now and then.

Anthony
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Old 14th February 2004, 10:30 PM   #534
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Default Re: Re: Your attacks on Grey are pathetic and self serving

Quote:
Originally posted by Nelson Pass


life is way short, so I do what I want while I still can.
May I engrave thay on my Aleph, when its finished?

But seriously, this freedom of information is very much appreciated. Thank you very much, Mr Pass.

Now If there would also be launched a First (mili)Watt pre, it might just fit in my budget too buy of the shelf to complement the Aleph..
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Old 14th February 2004, 11:30 PM   #535
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Quote:
Originally posted by GRollins
P.S.: I feel a bit uneasy about the idea that the First Watt commercial Aleph-X carries the same name as my project version. I specifically chose the name Aleph-X so as to distance my circuit from Nelson's XA nomenclature. Then along came the First Watt product with the same name. Perhaps it's one of those cyclical things.
I realize that you wouldn't have any way of knowing it, but the
Aleph X name has been kicking around internally for maybe 6
years. Like you, I used it to distance First Watt from the XA
series, not thinking about your project. I certainly don't have a
problem, as the two amplifiers are bound to be similar anyway,
and if some DIYer accidentally buys a FW amp thinking he's
getting a kit, I'll give him a refund.

refund: not in accord with Ferengi Rules of Acquisition
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Old 14th February 2004, 11:36 PM   #536
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Not to steer this thread back to its topic or anything, but I
am pleased to announce that ZV6 is all finished, and Mr.
Harrington will begin the job of posting it on Monday.
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Old 14th February 2004, 11:52 PM   #537
Magura is offline Magura  Denmark
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Default Uncontrolled impatience....

Clapping and cheering.....looking much forward to see the ZV6

Cheers


Magura
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Old 15th February 2004, 01:40 AM   #538
grataku is offline grataku  United States
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Doesn't Pass Labs celebrate president's day?
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Old 15th February 2004, 05:30 AM   #539
Bob03 is offline Bob03  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nelson Pass
Some of those pieces, like the A40 and the Citation 12,
would have to be redone.
When?
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Old 17th February 2004, 07:56 AM   #540
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Smile Some honest questions

"I was sitting there looking at Petter's proposed circuit and Nelson's patents and the idea sprang into mind that the "X" concept and the Aleph concept were not mutually exclusive."

Let me see if I understand this..... you came up with the Aleph X topology independently of Nelson's help by combining the X amps and Aleph design. Are you pulling our leg or are you really that experienced an amplifier builder? If the second is the case I doff my hat to you because I never knew you were at that level.

The active crossover........
It seems to me that I remember you were the one who desired a kinship with the Pass labs crossover by calling your creation the Xenover. reverse engineering the resistor matrix and Qs of the filters slopes was just a fun challenge and moamps is the one that came up with the closest likely values. He is a sharp guy! Somewhere along the way I came up with a different resistor matrix that was more along the lines of what I wanted for parts count, form factor of the pin grid, and number of adjustments. That was quite a bit of effort and a very satisfying endeavor. The result of which I shared with who ever would like to use it. It seems to come to mind that moamps and I working independently came up with a discrete transistor op amp along the lines of what Pass recommended in his op amp article.

"Clearly it's an emotional issue with him, not a logical one." Actually it's both. Good circuit design takes a lot of logic and is way beyond just fiddling around with some parts on the bench. I am passionate about audio design, and as a friend put it does not suffer fools gladly.

I would love to support you on your stuff more often, but you get so much wrong that it gets frustrating trying to unconfuse the victims of your advice. I tried to be nice replying to one of your other post and follow the advice from someone we both get along with, to just ignore you. Then you come along and dump this load of intrigue on my head....

Your remark "It's nothing but a Sallen-Key filter," is an insult to people that have put a lot of effort into the topic on the forum. If it is as no sweat as that, I would expect that we would have seen the design you promised.

"The name Xenover was suggested by the intentional simplicity of the circuit. And, no, it's not an "X" circuit per se. I doubt that anyone is going to be fooled by the difference between "Zen" and "Xeno," but just in case, I'll issue a disclaimer: It ain't Nelson's circuit. It ain't intended to be Nelson's circuit. So there."

I appreciate that clarification but chuckle over the irony, since this stuff was posted in the Pass Labs thread and even better, in the DIY progress report thread! You have a fine eye for satire. Is Xenover still the name of your project? I actually liked the suggestion someone gave you of "Rollover". I just call it the Wenever.......... that was a bit of harmless humor so no diatribe is called for.

Good Night,
Fred
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