good point, If it includes shipping, he probably isn't making a killing. 
I guess the DIY powers that be will have to decide if he is profiting unreasonably. If not, then it appears Nelson doesn't object.
I think I had an unreasonable idea of the number of boards he sells. You are probably right, when there is a group buy, hundreds get in on it just in case they might make something someday, yet the actual number constructed appear to be very low. The people that order Kristijan's boards are probably only the few that actually are going to make the amp.
I guess the DIY powers that be will have to decide if he is profiting unreasonably. If not, then it appears Nelson doesn't object.I think I had an unreasonable idea of the number of boards he sells. You are probably right, when there is a group buy, hundreds get in on it just in case they might make something someday, yet the actual number constructed appear to be very low. The people that order Kristijan's boards are probably only the few that actually are going to make the amp.
yeah, that's my point. being a college educated individual, it just seems stupid to do a business in that manner. he even prints nice manuals and stuffing guides. after all is said and done, the time invested really would be equal to a minimum wage job.
given this fact, considering his volume, this has to be the worst business venture ever.
on the other hand, even if he is loosing money, if Nelson Pass does not want him making boards, he should stop.
given this fact, considering his volume, this has to be the worst business venture ever.
on the other hand, even if he is loosing money, if Nelson Pass does not want him making boards, he should stop.
Kristijan,
I am very happy to see you answering these issues. I had wondered why you had not answered my last email. I see now that you were trying to contact Mr. Pass.
As a moderator for the DIYAudio forum, my concern is for the forum. Our position is that until this issue is cleared up we ask that you do not post a link to your site. We understand that the link exists on the Pass DIY site. We have no authority over that site or it's contents and cannot accept that as permission from Pass Labs. Paticularly since Mr. Pass has stated that he has not granted permission to use the AX design, we must accept that as the current state of the situation.
I sincerely hope that the IP issue can be worked out between you and Mr. Pass and Pass Labs. Until then we encourage you to continue to post freely, but without the link to your site.
I am very happy to see you answering these issues. I had wondered why you had not answered my last email. I see now that you were trying to contact Mr. Pass.
As a moderator for the DIYAudio forum, my concern is for the forum. Our position is that until this issue is cleared up we ask that you do not post a link to your site. We understand that the link exists on the Pass DIY site. We have no authority over that site or it's contents and cannot accept that as permission from Pass Labs. Paticularly since Mr. Pass has stated that he has not granted permission to use the AX design, we must accept that as the current state of the situation.
I sincerely hope that the IP issue can be worked out between you and Mr. Pass and Pass Labs. Until then we encourage you to continue to post freely, but without the link to your site.
Don't worry about your english. To me it seems to be very good!kristijan-k said:Thank you all for your time, and I am sorry about my English and this little too long post.
...infact, this is the my the longest post ever on this forum.
I'll hope also that all things will be cleared with Mr. Pass, wouldn't be too difficult I'd imagine.
To clear some things ...
I'm from Slovenia - so another former Yugoslavian republic as Croatia is ... And I know a little better "economy" and prices in our region than most of you guys ...
So - to produce a "profesional" PCB like Kristijan's are - it costs A LOT!
e.g. - PCB with dimensions of Zen boards - it would cost around 80$/pair=stereo if made by professional company ... Of course - by ordering 10 pieces - the price goes down - but still is around 60-70$/pair ...
Of course- in the case of a big order (like AX group buy was) - we would probably get into 10-20$/stereo ... - BUT what to do with the rest 998 pieces?? I don't need them? To ship them ti the States - I don't find a reason someone would pay me for all transport costs if he can buy them in States for lower price, etc etc ...
So - are Kristijans boards too high priced from my point of view? No! Why? They are really Quality made! It would cost me the same to buy them anywhere else. And afterall - the shipping costs are allready included in that price - and I thing it says there it is an airmail shipping that's included!
OK, the details arround AX is another story - but then again - Kristijan says he sold 6 pcs of AX till now - but I think in diyaudio's group buy the number was much much higher (500, 1000pcs??) - and I know that some people bought quite a lot of the PCBs ... For their own purpose? I don't believe so - I guess a stereo set is more than enough ... But what then with the rest 8, 12, 20,... PCBs that are laying around your place ...??? I think you can make your own conclusions ...
Btw - I don't know Kristijan personally, I've never meet him, I've not bought any PCB form him till now, etc ...
This is just my point of view - I just wanted to say the life is not always so cheap around here than some of you think!
Btw - another e.g: complete material for very similar chassis as for the GC by PD with eloxation etc etc ... will cost me around 50$ ... I will only have to drill the holes ... And it's one unique piece ... In a group buy - the price would get only lower ... So - was someone earning a lot of money with group buy chassis?
NO! Only the price for bare Aluminium and eloxation is much lower here ... And I will be the one that will have to drill it out ...
But if I would live in States - I would very gladly buy PD's one ... It would be simpler and in the end cheaper for me (I will spent quite some time for assembling the chassis together ... - but it will be my pleasure
) Sorry for long post; sorry for my bad English; And I hope there are no hard feelings non so ever - I'm not accusing anyone - just trying to explain a bit how things overhere stands ...
I wrote my longest post that is right after Kristijan's without seeing Kristijan's post. I guess we posted about the same time.
I believe he was wrong to worry that he would be treated unfairly if he posted his situation. It has helped us to understand.
Other peoples posts have helped me understand the international situation better too.
I guess the only issue is the AX and if that is cleared up- no problem! Of course Kristijan COULD easily delete the AX from his website temporarily until he possibly gets NP's permission...
I think this thread will help him- I have always wanted to get one of his boards for the Pass balanced line source or bride of son of zen. I can't comment on the electrical layout, but visually they are beautiful!!
I am still advocating a catagory for people like Kristijan, the APOX guys, Peter, MOX, et al that have tiny businesses that are a resource for us and do more good than harm.
I believe he was wrong to worry that he would be treated unfairly if he posted his situation. It has helped us to understand.
Other peoples posts have helped me understand the international situation better too.
I guess the only issue is the AX and if that is cleared up- no problem! Of course Kristijan COULD easily delete the AX from his website temporarily until he possibly gets NP's permission...
I think this thread will help him- I have always wanted to get one of his boards for the Pass balanced line source or bride of son of zen. I can't comment on the electrical layout, but visually they are beautiful!!
I am still advocating a catagory for people like Kristijan, the APOX guys, Peter, MOX, et al that have tiny businesses that are a resource for us and do more good than harm.
Variac said:
Possibly you already have more harm than good. The best
designers will not release proprietary information, mostly
because they fear exploitation. What is that costing you versus
buying from not-for-profit efforts?
And regarding Kristijan, I have not seen any statement from him
as to whether his boards are made at a profit or not, so one
can only speculate.
Speaking only for myself...
--I am more interested in ideas and concepts than I am in boards and such.
--Yes, I am in what appears to be the minority position in that I am willing to make my own layouts and use them to etch my own boards. (It's not particularly expensive or hard, but it can be tedious.)
--If even the possibility exists that people who are willing to offer ideas (e.g. Pass, Curl, Martin, Hansen, et. al.) might be offended by financial activity using their ideas, then my vote is to avoid even the appearance of impropriety and stick to the concepts. They're more important in the long run.
--Without their sharing of ideas, everyone would be stuck building the same old boring three stage amps until the end of time. Maybe that suits some of the members of this site, but I'm not one of them. Gimme something that stimulates my interest and curiosity and I'm a happy fella.
Just one guy's point of view.
Grey
--I am more interested in ideas and concepts than I am in boards and such.
--Yes, I am in what appears to be the minority position in that I am willing to make my own layouts and use them to etch my own boards. (It's not particularly expensive or hard, but it can be tedious.)
--If even the possibility exists that people who are willing to offer ideas (e.g. Pass, Curl, Martin, Hansen, et. al.) might be offended by financial activity using their ideas, then my vote is to avoid even the appearance of impropriety and stick to the concepts. They're more important in the long run.
--Without their sharing of ideas, everyone would be stuck building the same old boring three stage amps until the end of time. Maybe that suits some of the members of this site, but I'm not one of them. Gimme something that stimulates my interest and curiosity and I'm a happy fella.
Just one guy's point of view.
Grey
i think kristijan is trying to say from his good, but not perfect, english skills is that yes he makes a profit, but it only goes toward his time and effort of making the boards and such.
i think we can all agree, his monetary gain on these boards wont make him rich, and surely couldnt even be considered a business becuase of the small amount of income. im not sure his volume, but it cant be more than a few boards a month. even if its 50% profit, its only a few bucks an hour, considering mailing time, questions, getting the layouts, etc...
once again, its nothing new. Nelson just needs to say whether or not he allows kristijan to keep doing what he is doing. if so, we can have his URL on this site, if not, it stays as is.
even if he makes 99% profit on each board, if Nelson allows it, then it is good.
i think we can all agree, his monetary gain on these boards wont make him rich, and surely couldnt even be considered a business becuase of the small amount of income. im not sure his volume, but it cant be more than a few boards a month. even if its 50% profit, its only a few bucks an hour, considering mailing time, questions, getting the layouts, etc...
once again, its nothing new. Nelson just needs to say whether or not he allows kristijan to keep doing what he is doing. if so, we can have his URL on this site, if not, it stays as is.
even if he makes 99% profit on each board, if Nelson allows it, then it is good.
Nelson Pass said:
Following your logic, Tesla (born in Croatia) cannot be counted among "the best" simply because he did release proprietary information, did not see a penny out of it and consequently died in dire poverty. Please allow the idea that "the best" might not always, as a rule, be interested in cashing in on their excellence (otherwise, the world would be a very sad place indeed). Just as the designers who stubbornly refuse to disclose information about their designs are not all geniuses sitting on a golden egg.
I will provide the gerber files for free for the Aleph, if a non-profit group order is to be organized. There are already a few hundred boards are out there, and there are a few projects in the PassDIY gallery finished with the boards:
I don't have time to organize a group order, but as far as cost to get boards made:
(with a 2-week lead time from Advanced Circuits)
100 boards: $5.94 each
200 boards: $5.08 each
+ $149.00 tooling fee for order
+ $150.00 extra for order if color other than green is desired
+ shipping costs from manufacturer
If anyone wants to organize it, I can help setup a paypal shipping cart system for them, and provide advice on shipping. Drop me an e-mail me, as I haven't subscribed to this thread.
Just a suggestion if people are interested in more Aleph boards for a reasonable price, and if someone is willing to invest their time to make it happen.
--
Brian
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I don't have time to organize a group order, but as far as cost to get boards made:
(with a 2-week lead time from Advanced Circuits)
100 boards: $5.94 each
200 boards: $5.08 each
+ $149.00 tooling fee for order
+ $150.00 extra for order if color other than green is desired
+ shipping costs from manufacturer
If anyone wants to organize it, I can help setup a paypal shipping cart system for them, and provide advice on shipping. Drop me an e-mail me, as I haven't subscribed to this thread.
Just a suggestion if people are interested in more Aleph boards for a reasonable price, and if someone is willing to invest their time to make it happen.
--
Brian
I agree too. but people doesnt realize that only very few makes pass labs products(I think it is here in world about 40 000- 60 000 people who build it- that is VERY LITTLE , comparing to people who buy comercial products. in my country people doesnt know what is Pass labs amp. only few knows mark levinson.. so no harm or very minor is done I think.
and the main - people who cannot afford originals built, they wouldn buy anyway- no loose. only happy clones owners.
potencial buyers is not DIY'ers
peace
so no harm or very minor is done I think. and the main - people who cannot afford originals built, they wouldn buy anyway- no loose. only happy clones owners.
potencial buyers is not DIY'ers
peace
i think there are FAR less than that even that have built pass labs stuff.
i think more than anything, the IP of Nelson Pass is guarded as to stop the spread of it. not necessarily to DIY'ers, but to competition, or companies that could profit from his designs at a retail level, not just building clones out of a basement somewhere.
if levinson, classe, whoever, got ahold of a current pass labs design, altered it and sold it as their own, etc... this would be bad.
i think more than anything, the IP of Nelson Pass is guarded as to stop the spread of it. not necessarily to DIY'ers, but to competition, or companies that could profit from his designs at a retail level, not just building clones out of a basement somewhere.
if levinson, classe, whoever, got ahold of a current pass labs design, altered it and sold it as their own, etc... this would be bad.
40 000-60 000 pass labs DIY'ers in not a big number. think about whole world. frankly speaking in my country I find a 10person. I think there are much more. yap. and I wonder whay diy'ers copy Pass labs product, not mark levinson,krell, audionote etc.. ?
I think Mr. nelson gives great support for this that is very welcome.
-have not seen krell models schematic in they website..
I think Mr. nelson gives great support for this
that is very welcome.-have not seen krell models schematic in they website..
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.