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-   -   A-X IP Issues (split from Builders thread) (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/29297-x-ip-issues-split-builders-thread.html)

tomchaoda 28th February 2004 12:39 PM

Aleph-x kit
 
2 Attachment(s)
An Aleph-X kit modified from Grey's design I found in diyzone.net

FYI

Thomas

moe29 28th February 2004 02:30 PM

They always show such beautiful work - and very well doccumented.
Without the language pack installed on my web browser i think i
can see Mr. Pass and Mr. Rollins referred to in the write up...

But out of respect, they should have some mention of PassLabs
and their patents on the PCB... if you have enough room for your
URL, there's enough for what should be essential. :mad:

(at the very least it's bad Karma... those amps will never sound as
good as they should...)


m.

Nelson Pass 28th February 2004 08:56 PM

The question is whether they are selling this at a profit, which
they may be. I can't enforce a patent in Taiwan, but my
distributor can chase them for trademark infringement with
regards to "Aleph" and "Pass". Grey may have some rights,
but I don't think he has a distributor in Taiwan.

In any case, as I have said elsewhere, this is the sort of thing
that keeps Hugh Dean and others from publishing their work, and
so in the long run I think it hurts the community of DIYers.

koolscooby 28th February 2004 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by moe29
They always show such beautiful work - and very well doccumented.
Without the language pack installed on my web browser i think i
can see Mr. Pass and Mr. Rollins referred to in the write up...

But out of respect, they should have some mention of PassLabs
and their patents on the PCB... if you have enough room for your
URL, there's enough for what should be essential. :mad:

(at the very least it's bad Karma... those amps will never sound as
good as they should...)


m.


yeah i completely agree, and i agree with Mr. Pass' comment that things like that kill the diy world :( :( :(

And you'd think the designer of the board would be decent enough to give credit to the right people [himself/herself probably being a diyer in the first place]

Mark A. Gulbrandsen 29th February 2004 12:52 AM

I've never had very kind words for people that are rip offs. And when something like this is offered as a kit theres not actually much DIY going on to build it anyway.

Mark

Thunau 29th February 2004 03:58 AM

Intellectual property is a term that doesn't exist in asian nomenclature. If you can make it, it's yours to profit from. I don't want to come through as a bigot, but if one watches CNN's Lou Dobbs show or any other news source it becomes clear that the rest of the world is eager to benefit in any way possible from the american system. I work for a big touring and systems integration company (Clair Brothers). I get solicitations from chinese companies that make chaep perfect clones of audio, video and lighting equipment developed by american or european companies on a regular basis. How can they clone the gear so easilly? Because the stupid CEO's use chinese factories to manufacture their products cheaply. Guess what, the factories make extra runs of the gear they were contracted to manufacture and slap their own name on it. Then they sell it at the same cost to end users or distributors in other countries undercutting the original developers of the products. The most offensive exampe of that behavior in recent months was shown on Lou Dobbs show in regards to General Motors. They developed a compact car for the Asian market and had it manufactured in their own factories in China. Before their product even hit the dealerships in China, there was an identical car with a chinese brand name sold in China, obviously manufactured in the same (GM funded) factory. If that's not immoral or unethical then I don't know what is.
Let them develop their own technology and have it compete with the rest of the world. Chinese people are not dumber than american or any other nationality. Stealing ideas is as wrong as stealing physical products. I wonder what can we steal in return. There must be something uniquely asian that's worth having.... Anybody?

koolscooby 29th February 2004 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thunau
Intellectual property is a term that doesn't exist in asian nomenclature. If you can make it, it's yours to profit from. I don't want to come through as a bigot, but if one watches CNN's Lou Dobbs show or any other news source it becomes clear that the rest of the world is eager to benefit in any way possible from the american system. I work for a big touring and systems integration company (Clair Brothers). I get solicitations from chinese companies that make chaep perfect clones of audio, video and lighting equipment developed by american or european companies on a regular basis. How can they clone the gear so easilly? Because the stupid CEO's use chinese factories to manufacture their products cheaply. Guess what, the factories make extra runs of the gear they were contracted to manufacture and slap their own name on it. Then they sell it at the same cost to end users or distributors in other countries undercutting the original developers of the products. The most offensive exampe of that behavior in recent months was shown on Lou Dobbs show in regards to General Motors. They developed a compact car for the Asian market and had it manufactured in their own factories in China. Before their product even hit the dealerships in China, there was an identical car with a chinese brand name sold in China, obviously manufactured in the same (GM funded) factory. If that's not immoral or unethical then I don't know what is.
Let them develop their own technology and have it compete with the rest of the world. Chinese people are not dumber than american or any other nationality. Stealing ideas is as wrong as stealing physical products. I wonder what can we steal in return. There must be something uniquely asian that's worth having.... Anybody?


very well said...


:eek: I cant wait to see results from mark's amp... i hope it goes well :)

Btw Thunau, where you at in PA? i'm in butler, pa, (western pa, 20 miles above pittsburgh or so...) (sorry for the off topicness...) speaking of topics...

Is it suggested to use 1% resistors? and it *is* highly suggested to match fets correct?... Does anyone have the link to the procedure, i've seen it around, but dont know what hapepned to it

Have a good day
;) kS

Thunau 29th February 2004 04:45 AM

I'm sorry for the off topic reply too. I'm in Lancaster PA, and my empoyer is in Lititz, about 10 miles north.
Here is my "real" contribution to the thread. A source of inexpensive transformers for the Aleph-X:
16V 17.5 A dual secondary transformers for $45.00 a piece
I bought two. With 3.5A bias these will comfortably do 50W in 8 Ohm load with 4 power transistors. I'm planning on 4 such channels. Then I'm going to build a higher power version to drive a 4 Ohm load to about 60W. I'll need a lower voltage trafo. Anyone got a source?

HC 1st March 2004 01:34 AM

Notes on the Taiwanese Aleph X
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Thunau
Intellectual property is a term that doesn't exist in asian nomenclature. If you can make it, it's yours to profit from. I don't want to come through as a bigot, but if one watches CNN's Lou Dobbs show or any other news source it becomes clear that the rest of the world is eager to benefit in any way possible from the american system. I work for a big touring and systems integration company (Clair Brothers). I get solicitations from chinese companies that make chaep perfect clones of audio, video and lighting equipment developed by american or european companies on a regular basis. How can they clone the gear so easilly? Because the stupid CEO's use chinese factories to manufacture their products cheaply. Guess what, the factories make extra runs of the gear they were contracted to manufacture and slap their own name on it. Then they sell it at the same cost to end users or distributors in other countries undercutting the original developers of the products. The most offensive exampe of that behavior in recent months was shown on Lou Dobbs show in regards to General Motors. They developed a compact car for the Asian market and had it manufactured in their own factories in China. Before their product even hit the dealerships in China, there was an identical car with a chinese brand name sold in China, obviously manufactured in the same (GM funded) factory. If that's not immoral or unethical then I don't know what is.
Let them develop their own technology and have it compete with the rest of the world. Chinese people are not dumber than american or any other nationality. Stealing ideas is as wrong as stealing physical products. I wonder what can we steal in return. There must be something uniquely asian that's worth having.... Anybody?


1. I would like point out I have no connection, personally or businesswise, with DIYZONE.NET, therefore this is not a defense statement.

2. I agree that DIYZONE should have the courtesy of sending both Nelson and Grey a note of their intention of selling the Aleph X kits (its a kitset, yes, with case and everthing included).

3. I have participated in Chad Simpson's group purchase of the Aleph X PCB.

4. I do not live in Taiwan.

Having expressed the above disclaimer, this is the facts I would like to point out:

1. In the writeup of the Taiwanese version of the Aleph X, the author did mention the patent's of Mr Pass, in particular the "Super Symmetry" topology.

2. The whole thing started in December 2002 when someone posted in the DIYZONE discussion group the elegance of the "HiFiZen" version of the Aleph X, and was disappointed that he was late to join the group purchase. There was then a vote to start a "Taiwan group order" of their own, there were over 100 interested in this local group order.

3. There have been lengthy discussion for the subsequent months which circuit to built (Aleph 2, 5, X, etc.), their consensus, in the end, was still the X.

4. I still think they owe Nelson and Grey a formal request of some sort.

5. On Thunau's comments, I found quite being offended, being a Chinese myself. On the note of the disrespect of the intellectual property issue, I would respectively point out that, in the black markets of Hongkong, at least half, if not more, of the customer of the pirated software is not Asian.

6. On the note of the world trying to benefit from the American system, it is a bit biased (I hope the moderator will not sin bin me on this) as this is the American way of seeing the world being American centred.

7. On clones of audio video equipment, please note that in the 1950s and 1960s, Japanese had been labelled the same, and they have excelled into designing better gears. There are now lots of Chinese manufacturers, many of them competing in the Tube arena, and also low end DVD equipment, designed and manufactured in China. I can supply web sites if anyone is interested.

8. The GM example quoted, may have been distorted (probably by the media). At this moment in time, major manufacturing plants in China can only be a JV between a foreign company and a local investment as the majority shareholder. The foreign company imports the technolgy and probably the management, and the local supply the rest (people, land, etc.). The product then can be marketed in either the foreign brand name or a local brand (and may have a price disparaity and target for a different market segment). This will change though immeniently with the WTO agreement.

9. One point to note also, that Asian have participated in many American innovations and designs.

10. Finally, if I have offended anyone, my apologies.

Henry

Magura 1st March 2004 02:09 AM

Henry

Americans sure have a generally biased viewpoint of the world situation (about half of the people im among on everyday basis are either american or british), so does the britts for that kind of matter, but the issue of chineese ripoffs is though real. Denmark lives on design in many ways, and i have personally seen stuff made in taiwan or china that is patented in denmark. The only sanction a danish company is able to do to such a ripoff (even with patent and so forth) is usually to block the import to denmark (the commercial part, not private import), they can mostly even block the import to EU....but thats where it ends.

So, considering that i know a few cases of such "ripoffs" that have caused huge loss to the rightfull owners of the patents....id be carefull defending violation of patent rights with a phrase like "only half of whats on the black market is made in taiwan or china" and that some dont violate patent rights.

What is happening in china, taiwan, india and a few places in eastern europe as well (im sure there are others as well) is highly unacceptable, and should not be defended in any way.

When people start making PCB's for a patented product, they are as far as im concerned already on the wrong side of whats good. Pass have chosen to tolerate such buisness, though i sometimes wonder why. When people start making kits for a patented product, they have clearly crossed the line. Such low life should have a couple of lawayers on the neck.

hmm...i gotta stop before i blow up. This is simply too far out.

Magura:(


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