A-X IP Issues (split from Builders thread)

[Magura]

Originally posted by tomchaoda


. I am an Asian American and I found out the two quotes above quite offending!

Thomas

You have taken the quote out of context....if you read the entire post youd see that it was said about those making a kit for sale. Please read the entire post before you get offended!!


Magura

[HC]

Originally posted by moe29
Kristijan (PCB-Design) only sells PCB's... not entire kits.

moe29,

IMHO, there is no difference. To pirate a song or the entire CD is still a pirate. I have been trying to avoid pulling Kristijan into the thread but anyhow this has been raised. Mr Pass did not object to Kristijan, and he did not object to DIYZONE (at least up to this moment).

The HiFiZen Aleph X, in fact, has been referenced by DIYZONE as "a version that allows various options to be tried out, thus is better for the more experienced DIYers", whereas the DIYZONE provides an opportunity for the less expereinced.

For example, it would be extremely difficult for anyone to purchase, say 50 IRF240 and have a few matched pairs. In fact, 50 may not be enough to get the necessary matched pairs. Then there will be a pile of parts left over. In addition, someone like me who do not have access to fancy metal processing machinery (like Peter Daniels) has the benefit of the case fabricated with appropriate holes and opening, etc. I believe it helped beginners to understand the beauty of Mr Pass' elegant design solutions.

It seems a lot of the group purchase participants are students.

Another disclaimer: I did not participate in the DIYZONE Aleph X group pruchase and have no connection to the site.

Again, I have full respect of the IP rights, but somehow this discussion seems to have been biased.

[HC]

Originally posted by Magura



You have taken the quote out of context....if you read the entire post youd see that it was said about those making a kit for sale. Please read the entire post before you get offended!!


Magura

Magura,

I think Thomas was referring to Thunau's comments, not yours.

Having heated debate on [the IP issue] that, strangely enough, everyone agrees that must be upkeeped, shall we look at the brighter side of things?

DIYZONE has apart from the Aleph X group purchase, has a lot of other "kits" to offer, most of them original designs. Many of them are very simple that there has been quite a few beginners joined the brave new world of DIY audio with the help of this site.

Mr Nelson Pass' name was made known to a lot of people who would not otherwise have a clue this is the grand master of audio design. Free advertisement? Maybe.

Maybe I have said too much today.

[Nelson Pass]

Originally posted by averageman
Someone advised DIY ZONE owner LIMIN WU it is immoral to "clone/copy" well-known designs, but he just said: "We are talking about "BUSINESS" without any emotion" You may ask someone to check what he spoke for all people on the diyaudio.

I think that just about says it. I will simply contact my distributor
in Taiwan and let him deal with it as he sees fit.

[grataku]

Originally posted by Magura



If he is making a profit, and im quite sure he is....its still illeagal.

Magura

I am sure he is.
And so are the the people of diyzone. I don't care how little they are making. You shouldn't be selling kits nor boards.

As far as the raising-sun countries ripping off the west it has been going on forever. The case of Italian motorcycles design being ripped off by honda suzuki and kawazaky it's one of the examples most dear to me.
I was just too happy to see the reverse happen, abeit on a smaller scale, when Peter got busy with the Gainclone idea.

What I think is that we are the very murky interface between DIY and commercial here. Most of the circuits on this site do work well and sound damn good too. You should also be aware that 99% of the mama and papa audio autfits out there are selling copies of copies of copies that, they claim, have been optimized to sound better.

The important thing is that the few originals out there (like Nelson) are keeping one step ahead of the competition.

[Nelson Pass]

I just received an email from Mr. Limin Wu and also from
another gentlemen in Taiwan.

Mr. Wu states that this is a one time group buy and that the
miniscule profit above parts cost is for the labor of matching
devices and such, and promises that this will cease in March.

I recall the amplifiers in the photos on his site had "Pass Aleph X"
in large lettering on the front panel. I see that this is not the
case as of this morning.

There does seem to be some misunderstanding in Taiwan (and
maybe elsewhere) about our policy, although it seems to me
that I have stated it often enough.

Ah well, this sort of thing has happened every couple of months
for the last 26 years. Not all companies companies are unethical,
as exemplified by Nakamichi, who paid 6 figures for a license to
use the Stasis design (Thanks, Mr. Yamazaki).

[jewilson]

Nelson,

With the out sourcing going on now in the engineering field, I expect this to get much more prevalent. As engineers leave the US, other countries wit out fair trade practices and paten laws will do more copying. Of course, some fields will be hit much worse than others.

[GRollins]

I'm not sure what rights I might have to the Aleph-X. Perhaps a copyright on that particular version of the circuit, though that's easy enough to work around. In any event Nelson's patents are clearly the defining legal documents and his rights supercede mine (if any). And that's as it should be.
The whole intellectual property thing took a bit of a turn for me when my stories started getting ripped off without payment. I once saw a quote from a more established author in the field who said he'd always wished that he was good enough that someone would find it worth their while to steal from him. I make no claims as to how good an author I am--that's for others to decide--but the web has made it practical to steal stories even from the little guys...you know they're scraping bottom when they have nothing better to do than take my stories.
At the moment I'm sitting on three audio projects that I could post fairly readily. Given the atmosphere here at this time, I don't intend to do so. I don't profit from this stuff...indeed, it seems to serve only as a lightning rod for hassle. With that in mind, the scales--for me--seem to be tilting towards the negative side.
For the record, I have received the following:
--PaulB sent me some IRF MOSFETs, and later a pair of Aleph-X boards. I'm not sure who made the boards, but they are not of the HiFiZen group.
--Jam sent me three 2SK389s a while back. They got submerged under other stuff (my fault, not his) and surfaced this past fall during a big cleanup I undertook...which still isn't done.
--HiFiZen sent me a pair of Aleph-X boards. Someone else was involved in that board layout, but I can't remember who. I apologize for not remembering their ID.
--MikeW has sent me two different generations of Mini-A boards.
--And last, but certainly not least, Nelson sent me a very nice bottle of wine when the Aleph-X thread hit 250k.
I'd like to offer my thanks to the above people. They didn't have to do what they did. In no case am I aware of any skeletons in the closet that I could use to blackmail them into parting with those things. They did it out of generosity. I believe that is a full accounting of the 'profit' that I have made from this phase of my audio career. If I have been so crass as to leave anyone out, please accept my apologies...I'm writing this post at work and my mind is a bit scattered.
Don't get me wrong. I love audio as much as anyone, and more than most. It's just that the web tends to bring out the best and worst in people. The guys and gals who are pure gold at heart shine brightly indeed, but there are others who seem to have gone over to the dark side.

Grey

[Magura]

Sad but true!

Magura

EDIT:

All most of us really want is to play around....this is what kills the fun and the spirit.

[Nelson Pass]

Originally posted by GRollins I once saw a quote from a more established author in the field who said he'd always wished that he was good enough that someone would find it worth their while to steal from him.

Of course that's the silver lining; being ripped off is the surest
sign of success. Once upon a time a not-going-to-be-named
company in one of the Carolina's copied the Zen resistor for
resistor. I was ****ed off enough at the time that I decided to
stop publishing projects. After my reaction went through a
half-life or so, I decided that it was an immature and pointless
response - as if I should stop doing what I like because some
sphincter-boy can't design his own stuff.

:Buddha Icon: