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Old 1st April 2016, 07:28 PM   #1
Bare is offline Bare  Canada
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Default Me and My new F6

Finally got it together and it Works ! yippee.
Initially tried on disposable 'tester' speakers, a pair of Mark Audio Diy efforts that never met expectations.
Sounded Good.. far better sound than those had ever made previously.

This AM the Big reveal.. I tried with my (bought New in '72) Tannoy Golds.
Initial/instant impression was: Yikes!
Instant 'M..e..l..l..o..w ' was the immediate impression. a palpable sounds 'reduction'. Dissapointment being the immediate reaction.
Yes, it pains to say that.

Curiously, with extended listening; detail was certainly still there, bass still had subtle variations but subtle Sharpness and Impact were 'Smooothed' out.. missing actually, recordings seemingly lost their 'edge'
A significant shortcoming IMO.
My fave 'tester' recording: Joe Bonamassa's "Acoustic Evening at the Vienna Opera House", lost much of it's live recording realism.
Even Hand claps aren't quite right imo.
Lesser albums seem to Sound more like a back row seat at a Lounge performance.
Dire Straights (which I admittedly don't much like :-) sounds simply 'mushy' to my ears. Lounge MuZak

My inexpensive Akitika Lm3886 based amp does Soundstage and Realism notably better.. weird and completely unexpected.
Arguably the F6 may have a bit finer detail, not sure either way.. yet.
Hopefully this is early days yet and I have yet to fiddle around with my Pre or fit a 10K passive pot cobble up.

Dunno.. lotsa possibilities. Not giving up by any means.

What does strike as odd cuz it's nowhere else mentioned, is this is a ..Mellow... amp.
Desirable synergy on Harsh speakers that need taming ?
However, on those that Don't (barring further adjustments to my gear), Perhaps not so great /ideal.

Going to have to remove the F6 from my setup, for a few days at least, to reset my ears/brain before I can make another try at evaluating the sounds.
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Old 1st April 2016, 09:13 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bare View Post
Finally got it together and it Works ! yippee.
Initially tried on disposable 'tester' speakers, a pair of Mark Audio Diy efforts that never met expectations.
Sounded Good.. far better sound than those had ever made previously.

This AM the Big reveal.. I tried with my (bought New in '72) Tannoy Golds.
Initial/instant impression was: Yikes!
Instant 'M..e..l..l..o..w ' was the immediate impression. a palpable sounds 'reduction'. Dissapointment being the immediate reaction.
Yes, it pains to say that.

Curiously, with extended listening; detail was certainly still there, bass still had subtle variations but subtle Sharpness and Impact were 'Smooothed' out.. missing actually, recordings seemingly lost their 'edge'
A significant shortcoming IMO.
My fave 'tester' recording: Joe Bonamassa's "Acoustic Evening at the Vienna Opera House", lost much of it's live recording realism.
Even Hand claps aren't quite right imo.
Lesser albums seem to Sound more like a back row seat at a Lounge performance.
Dire Straights (which I admittedly don't much like :-) sounds simply 'mushy' to my ears. Lounge MuZak

My inexpensive Akitika Lm3886 based amp does Soundstage and Realism notably better.. weird and completely unexpected.
Arguably the F6 may have a bit finer detail, not sure either way.. yet.
Hopefully this is early days yet and I have yet to fiddle around with my Pre or fit a 10K passive pot cobble up.

Dunno.. lotsa possibilities. Not giving up by any means.

What does strike as odd cuz it's nowhere else mentioned, is this is a ..Mellow... amp.
Desirable synergy on Harsh speakers that need taming ?
However, on those that Don't (barring further adjustments to my gear), Perhaps not so great /ideal.

Going to have to remove the F6 from my setup, for a few days at least, to reset my ears/brain before I can make another try at evaluating the sounds.
Odd, I had a very different first impression. So did some others, but those reports were generally with the high end being a bit on the over done side, one member adjusting his speakers crossover to get things right. Mine seemed to slowly mellow out, although I did increase port size to increase "bassiness" and dialed down the compression horn tweet a couple of notches in the beginning. After a while this was no longer necessary.

More in line with your findings, I found initial sound to be quite recessed especially sound stage wise. The stage did not project beyond the front of the speakers and seemed trapped behind that line.

With a little time, the soundstage came more forward and spread out more. It expanded a surprising bit over a little more time, high end mellowed a touch and they were fine. High frequency artifacts were superbly reproduced, with much detail. My M2 did the same thing concerning burn in. At first, distant and murky. shortly, it came into its own and seems better every time I listen.

I would let the amp burn in a while and see what you get. If it doesn't improve, something must be off. It is a truly impressive amplifier. Reading the reviews at "New record Day" and 6moons reveal it to be a winner...it their opinion anyway.

Russellc
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Last edited by Russellc; 1st April 2016 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 1st April 2016, 10:53 PM   #3
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If you like to experiment then you could increase the amount of feedback. That should give the perception of extra detail.
Or if you have the ability to match mosfets that should help too.

Have you measured noise at the output?
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Last edited by 2 picoDumbs; 1st April 2016 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 1st April 2016, 11:31 PM   #4
Zen Mod is offline Zen Mod  Serbia
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it's already plenty of facts regarding adjustment of THD spectra of F6

all you need is semi-decent sound card , little reading and adequate software
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Old 2nd April 2016, 12:29 AM   #5
wdecho is online now wdecho  United States
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I am the one that changed my crossovers with the F6 and the change made all my amps sound better. It needed doing. I did not recognize the deficiency of my crossovers until the F6, it is that good and revealing. My soundstage is outstanding with the F6 equal to some of the 4 SET's that I own. Vocals are forward and not laid back. The F6 should sound fantastic with your conventional speakers. I would do some component changing if this is not the case. It should not sound as you have described it.

Reviewers of the Firstwatt built ones have nothing but praise for this amp.

Last edited by wdecho; 2nd April 2016 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 03:50 AM   #6
Bare is offline Bare  Canada
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Thanks for the thoughts gents. Appreciated.
Spent the last couple of hours with the venerable lm3886 based amp reinserted (f6 'in storage' for the forseeable future).
Instant.. Immediate sounds improvements.
SAME detail level.. I'm Now convinced the F6 has NO detail advantage that I can hear.
Playing Tommy (the Who) was immediately Raucous, Brash and in My room the ..Dynamics... are Front, Centre and Impressive.
Bass is once again palpable in my diaphragm, Kick drums I can physically feel the impact of and the Soundstage is Huge.. get up and walk around big, easy to pick out instruments and follow them through the piece.
Whereas my F6's soundstage is Iffy to small.. period, a Striking difference.
Seriously Kids.. there Are serious differences here.
Frankly reminds me mostly of an Se 45 meshplate contraption that I briefly fooled with 20 yrs ago.
Nice but wayy too Mellow/No dynamics and a bit of PITA to live with.

Honestly the F6 does sound Decent. Just not near to what I expected.
I fully understand how on some speakers it could be a Godsend.
But.. on Mine it's OK, but mostly Mehhh. Not a keeper.

Dunno about the crossovers.
I experimented with the Crossover design that 'papa' claims is on His Tannoys... in '96 and discarded /moved on from it by '97.
There Are better configurations... but then there always are :-)
However Most All Tannoy 'improvement' paths are well trodden, 45+ yrs on
Anything is possible :-) but I Seriously doubt that MY Tannoys' crossover is any problem.

Sooo.. the theory is that I Can Tweak the F6 to 'same as' my other amps' performance levels?
Erm.. WHY would I want to do that?
In real life Teslas can leave Porsches for dead as small example. Modern technology and 1/2 to 1/3rd the price 4 seaters too. Tough to equal let alone beat using yesterdays' Gear.
My cheapish /low pedigree amp Driving MY Tannoys is Wayyy more enjoyable than My F6, it's dynamics are Outstanding and it's detail resolution is seemingly at least Equal.. As Is.
Had I not gone through this exercise I wouldn't have believed it either.
The pedigree does overwhelm one.

Clearly, however there ARE other amplifier technologies.

Last edited by Bare; 2nd April 2016 at 04:06 AM.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 03:58 AM   #7
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Tweaking is fun, but if that is not your cup of tea no problem.
By the sound of it probably a BA2/BA3 with Push Pull output stage or F5 is probably more to your liking. Or the New Sony pt 2 amp.

What was Idss on the jfets. This is important on this amp, as the frequency response is not it's strong point and a decent amount of current is needed because of the transformers.

It is very easy to increase feedback to get some improvement.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 04:07 AM   #8
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It's a matter of preference. You might like your sound to be a bit brighter.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 04:10 AM   #9
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Sorry the F6 didn't work out for you. Building a class A amp is a non-trivial
endeavour so I can appreciate your disappointment.

Good luck with any future projects and happy listening.

Cheers,
Dennis
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Old 2nd April 2016, 04:29 AM   #10
Bare is offline Bare  Canada
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Thanks.
Merely immediate dissapointment /ranting
I'll get over it.
Likely revisit it all in the fall.. prolly experiment with it then
All bits from DIYAudio shop including matched jfets.
Following the recipie seemed important No ad libbing
Tannoys NEED heavy current capable amplifications.
Those big heavy cones do poorly without significant current control. (I've learned a little bit about them since '72 )
Forget that and weak bass /dynamics result.

Last edited by Bare; 2nd April 2016 at 04:31 AM.
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