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Old 29th June 2008, 09:22 AM   #21
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Pete,

I understand the interest to hear other people's comments, but I sense a certain internal conflict here. You do seem to realize that people's judgement is strongly colored by their own interest/involvement; yet are you willing to nevertheless accept that judgement as valid for your particular needs?

Similarly in Grey's first post, where he states that he wouldn't really accept most peoples judgement for given reasons, yet appears to expect you to accept HIS assesment as impartial.

Aren't people interesting ?

Jan Didden
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Old 29th June 2008, 10:09 AM   #22
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Some of the diy Pass people use the ASKA
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Old 29th June 2008, 06:01 PM   #23
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There are a few posts being addressed to Pete here...

are you sure he is listening?, because he hasnt been on the forum in nearly 2 years..

just a thought

Ed
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Old 29th June 2008, 08:07 PM   #24
moe29 is offline moe29  United States
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way to dig up a 6+ year old post!
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Old 30th June 2008, 03:03 AM   #25
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Well actually yes, Pete IS listening. Just been very busy with other things that haven't involved audio.

What is interesting to me is that most DIY designs are very simple. In commercial manufacturing, huge lengths are taken to reduce component count to an absolute minimum. They don't put stuff there that isn't necessary for the purpose they're trying to achieve. So why then aren't the commercial designs similarly simplistic?
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Old 30th June 2008, 09:04 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete Fleming
Well actually yes, Pete IS listening. Just been very busy with other things that haven't involved audio.

What is interesting to me is that most DIY designs are very simple. In commercial manufacturing, huge lengths are taken to reduce component count to an absolute minimum. They don't put stuff there that isn't necessary for the purpose they're trying to achieve. So why then aren't the commercial designs similarly simplistic?

Pete,

Maybe the purpose they're trying to achieve is different?
One thing that comes to mind is that possibly in a commercial design some extra effort is required to make it repeatable across varying device parameters, and, for a power amp for example, some form of overload and speaker protection. That will cost some additional components.

Also, commercial designs also need to measure reasonably good versus just sound pleasantly. Most probably meaning: more components.

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Old 30th June 2008, 09:19 AM   #27
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Indeed I would say that's true, in addition to the "frills" some people seem to want on devices. But the real high-end gear? Hmm, just a sceptical type of person is all.
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Old 30th June 2008, 09:35 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete Fleming
Indeed I would say that's true, in addition to the "frills" some people seem to want on devices. But the real high-end gear? Hmm, just a sceptical type of person is all.
Frills, yes.
What I was thinking, too.
Besides the safety/proctection issues janneman points to,
they need some fancy features to advertise.
Something new and maybe exotic no other company have,
using some fancy expression like:
Ultra Envelope Special Power Circuit
UEsPC [tm]

Another thing is that massproduced amplifiers have to be more tolerant to components deviations.
This may need some extra transistors/resistors to make the amplifier work within specs
even if some devices are at some end of the component tolerance scale.

I am sure we can find several other resons why commercial amps have more of some things.
But less of other cost intensive features.
Like separate transformer and power supply for input/vas.
And like 'overdimensioned' heatsinking and transformers.

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Old 30th June 2008, 09:49 AM   #29
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When I was posting about component count I was thinking of the mass produced models of course, but also considered smaller manufacturers. Names such as Creek, MF, Arcam, Meridian, and so it goes on. They tend to have quality at the forefront but their designs are often far from "simple". If anyone thinks they've come up with an ultra-simple design that nobody has tried before, and is therefore "hush hush, top secret" I can respectfully suggest a reality check.

Life is a compromise. Could it be in DIY we are prepared to compromise things such as weight, size and (possibly most of all) efficiency in the quest for ultimate sound? Do we really need ultra-reliable output protection that is essentially idiot proof? Yet even if you strip this sort of thing out from a mid-higher commercial design they're still far from simple and the signal path seems to meander it's way through the multiple stages.

Which brings me back to the beginning. Are the DIY amplifiers (for example) so much better than commercial offerings simply because all the "frills" have been stripped out and what remains has been optimised for those individual components? Much like a race car may be based on a stripped down version of a street car. Gone are the power windows, air-conditioning, even the carpet and extra seats make way for performance. Or are we just kidding ourselves a bit
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Old 30th June 2008, 10:03 AM   #30
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And how many of us put
remote controls on our amplifiers?
And switching relays for this and that?

Some of Pass diy Amplifiers would be a nightmare to massproduce.
I am thinking for example on his great work Zen v5..
The Complementary ZEN - Zen Variations Part 5
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/zen-v5-hires.pdf
http://www.passdiy.com/projects.htm

Although Zen v5. is seemingly a very simple MOSFET amplifier,
this one requires a great deal of matching.
As well as a very good and clean power supply.

Keeping It Simple requires high precision and is many times a 'walking the line'
in balancing on the edge of Transistor optimal performance.

Such matching & trimming, often by many trial and errors, are some of the great and rewarding things.
When doing Do-It-Yourself.
At least in the end when you got it nice working as a beauty.


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