I was once told by a friend down in Florida that he wouldn't consider a DIY amp because it would not be UL approved. Without such an approval, if his house were to have a fire, not DIY amp related, his insurance would not pay the bill because he had a non-UL device plugged into 1 of his outlets.
Is this true?
Is this true?
In Germany, he'd be right if you swap "UL" by "CE".
More to the point, the burden of proof would be reversed. It would be your task to provide proof it was not the non-approved amp that burned down your house. I consider this an impossible task as the insurance company can afford the better lawyers
Renting out self-made (non-approved) PA equipment to people for years gave me some kind of headache sometimes.
More to the point, the burden of proof would be reversed. It would be your task to provide proof it was not the non-approved amp that burned down your house. I consider this an impossible task as the insurance company can afford the better lawyers
Renting out self-made (non-approved) PA equipment to people for years gave me some kind of headache sometimes.
For a living I install projection and sound systems in movie theateres. The UL tag used to be looked for by alot of electrical and fire inspectors, but since the early 90's that seems to have somewhat become a thing of the past.....even in a public building. There are at least three major ratings orginazitions now and at least two of those now carry more clout than the good ole UL label once did.
As far as DIY stuff goes, there may not be insurance coverage if your home burns down doe to the DIY project going up in flames. However using a good quality metal enclosure is a good way to be able to easily show if the amp(or what ever) caused the fire or not. With a sealed off electronic enclosure the insides will probably look like clean and new proving that the fire started elsewhere. Also at least here in the states all home fires are throughly investigated by the local fire department and that finding generally carries more weight in a court case.
There is one other simple method to alleviate any possible insurance problems and thats to leave your equipment unplugged when you're not around. If a fire starts the FD will notice that the equipment is not plugged in...assuming there's enough left for them to see. In most civilized areas the average house fire rarely gets out of control.
Mark
As far as DIY stuff goes, there may not be insurance coverage if your home burns down doe to the DIY project going up in flames. However using a good quality metal enclosure is a good way to be able to easily show if the amp(or what ever) caused the fire or not. With a sealed off electronic enclosure the insides will probably look like clean and new proving that the fire started elsewhere. Also at least here in the states all home fires are throughly investigated by the local fire department and that finding generally carries more weight in a court case.
There is one other simple method to alleviate any possible insurance problems and thats to leave your equipment unplugged when you're not around. If a fire starts the FD will notice that the equipment is not plugged in...assuming there's enough left for them to see. In most civilized areas the average house fire rarely gets out of control.
Mark
Fire and Insurance
A fire would not be problem, however getting the insurance to pay the value of your DIY project migh be another story.
If your equipment is built well and with the propper safegards
you will not have an issue in the US. In canada that might be different, you should use CSA approved wire.
A fire would not be problem, however getting the insurance to pay the value of your DIY project migh be another story.
If your equipment is built well and with the propper safegards
you will not have an issue in the US. In canada that might be different, you should use CSA approved wire.
I don't know how much it would help to argue for your case, but
if you are worried, make sure you follow all safety regulations
for mains wiring etc., document on paper how you have done
this and take close-up photos showing the actual wiring and
solutions. Oh, and don't forget to store these documents and
photoes somewhere else than in your house.
if you are worried, make sure you follow all safety regulations
for mains wiring etc., document on paper how you have done
this and take close-up photos showing the actual wiring and
solutions. Oh, and don't forget to store these documents and
photoes somewhere else than in your house.
With properly breakered, or fused circuits in a home I think the chance is pretty slim of that happenning. The only situation I can think of is an old home that might still have alumnium wiring. In that case the insurance co. would blame it on the wiring not meeting codes, not the device being used. There are ALOT of homes that still have alumnium wiring in them!!!!
Again, usually the fire departments findings carry the most weight. I know two people whos homes had fires in them. Both parties insurance companies paid their claims almost immediately. In one case the fire was started by an electric heater being too close to a curtain, the second one was a car that had a leak in the fuel line. To my knowledge neither the car maker, rapair station, nor heater manufacturer was sued or questioned at all.
Mark
Again, usually the fire departments findings carry the most weight. I know two people whos homes had fires in them. Both parties insurance companies paid their claims almost immediately. In one case the fire was started by an electric heater being too close to a curtain, the second one was a car that had a leak in the fuel line. To my knowledge neither the car maker, rapair station, nor heater manufacturer was sued or questioned at all.
Mark
BTW, not right on topic but, I have talked to firemen about
electrical hazards, not DÍY stuff though. The two most important
thiings to do to avoid fire due to electric equipment are:
1) Always pull the mains plug of you coffe brewer whennot
using it, just switching it off is not sufficient for many of these.
2) Always swicth off your TV set with the mains switch at the
front, rather than just through the remote control. The fire
department in my area did a advertisement campaing for this,
and it turned out that TV-related fires decreased dramatically
here compared to the rest of the country. (Me, I confess I am
usually to lazy to follow this advice.)
BTW, I also asked about the risks of PCs catching fire. He said
that to their experience this was almost a no-proglem. They
contain so much flame-protection chemicals that are almost
impossible to set on fire. They told me they had attemptd a
realistic fire-evacuation exercise (don't know the english
term) at a local company. To add to the realism, they decided
to set a few PCs on fire. They eventually had to pour about
two litres of petrol into the case to finally get it burning.
Your local fire departments mileage may vary, of course.
electrical hazards, not DÍY stuff though. The two most important
thiings to do to avoid fire due to electric equipment are:
1) Always pull the mains plug of you coffe brewer whennot
using it, just switching it off is not sufficient for many of these.
2) Always swicth off your TV set with the mains switch at the
front, rather than just through the remote control. The fire
department in my area did a advertisement campaing for this,
and it turned out that TV-related fires decreased dramatically
here compared to the rest of the country. (Me, I confess I am
usually to lazy to follow this advice.)
BTW, I also asked about the risks of PCs catching fire. He said
that to their experience this was almost a no-proglem. They
contain so much flame-protection chemicals that are almost
impossible to set on fire. They told me they had attemptd a
realistic fire-evacuation exercise (don't know the english
term) at a local company. To add to the realism, they decided
to set a few PCs on fire. They eventually had to pour about
two litres of petrol into the case to finally get it burning.
Your local fire departments mileage may vary, of course.
Christer said:
Personally, I'm not worried. Trust me, I have my house custom set up for the first 2 floors on a home made UPS 2kw inverter through the fuse box, 3 DIY amps, 1 DIY satelite reciever, & 1 semi DIY 37 inch multiscan monitor.
I have a few friend who want some of my old DIY projects, but, they are not engineers and they are worried.
Brian Guralnick said:
Think twice about that. If you get killed yourself from electric
shock or burn down your own house, that is bad. But how
would you feel if your best friend dies because of your DIY
amp, even if there was really nothing wrong with it and the
cause for the accident was just unfortunate circumstances?
Christer said:
You actually brought up a point which I havn't even considered. I've already managed 2 UL & FCC aprovals on 2 comercial products I've designed & I'm begining a third. I know that my amp would also pass if put to the test. I didn't consider the possibility of possible "unfortunate circumstances".
Actually if you used a circuit a with an AFCI breaker it will detect leakages in the wiring that are indicative of impending wire failure. There are some new standards recently put on the books to have these installed in certain areas of the house. They are very expensive costing from $100 to $300 per breaker, but thet are designed to prevent Fires by detecting the conditions that can cause them.
Regards
Anthony
Regards
Anthony
The UL, CSA, TUV stamp on a part makes everyone feel good and safe about the part they are purchasing, but should it?. Lets just talk about UL because I have had more experience with them.
If a device has 'UL' stamped on it what does that mean? It simply means the device was tested to a UL standard test and met that test requirements.
Lets look at one example:
you buy an electrical connector that has 'UL' stamped on it. Lets assume you bought the connector for use in a wet environment ( a boat ) so you are concerned with the 'water tightness' of the connector. So you purchase a UL stamped connector assuming it meets 'water tightness'. The connector may have been tested at UL or a UL approved lab for 'flameproof'. The part then gets stamped with 'UL' by the manufacturer because it met UL for the 'flameproof' test, in this example the UL stamp has nothing to do with the UL test for 'water tightness'.
Unless the manufacturer specifies the UL 'standard number' the device is tested to, you really have no way of knowing what test criteria the device meets. So dont let yourself have a false sense of security based upon a UL stamp.
Someone who works with UL regularly may have better insight to this than me, but the following point is important, for UL as well as any other standards organization.
You must know "specifically" what UL standard the part was tested to.
........Or just make sure the cord you buy for your DIY has "UL" stamped on it, now your DIY project has instant "UL" approval without all the expense and paperwork (of course if your house burns down because of your project the cord with the UL stamp on it will be burnt up and you will have nothing to show the insurance company!)
If a device has 'UL' stamped on it what does that mean? It simply means the device was tested to a UL standard test and met that test requirements.
Lets look at one example:
you buy an electrical connector that has 'UL' stamped on it. Lets assume you bought the connector for use in a wet environment ( a boat ) so you are concerned with the 'water tightness' of the connector. So you purchase a UL stamped connector assuming it meets 'water tightness'. The connector may have been tested at UL or a UL approved lab for 'flameproof'. The part then gets stamped with 'UL' by the manufacturer because it met UL for the 'flameproof' test, in this example the UL stamp has nothing to do with the UL test for 'water tightness'.
Unless the manufacturer specifies the UL 'standard number' the device is tested to, you really have no way of knowing what test criteria the device meets. So dont let yourself have a false sense of security based upon a UL stamp.
Someone who works with UL regularly may have better insight to this than me, but the following point is important, for UL as well as any other standards organization.
You must know "specifically" what UL standard the part was tested to.
........Or just make sure the cord you buy for your DIY has "UL" stamped on it, now your DIY project has instant "UL" approval without all the expense and paperwork
(of course if your house burns down because of your project the cord with the UL stamp on it will be burnt up and you will have nothing to show the insurance company!)
First of all, keep the receipts. They are a legal document that goes a long way towards credibility. Also, take pictures. Even photos from project log will add credence, especially if they clearly show the UL markings on the cables.
If you get PCBs made by a contract mfg, use flame retardant board material and then make sure your purchase order and invoice clearly shows the grade of material used for the board. Even if you make your own boards, choosing better materials and documenting them with receipts and photos will go a long way towards protecting yourself. Of course, if the photos show a design fault that actually caused the fire, then you have tied your own noose...
It will also help if you can use UL/CSA rated external stand-alone power supplies since mains do not go inside the project. Many small consumer devices now use this method of avoiding that particular safety certification.
ensen.
If you get PCBs made by a contract mfg, use flame retardant board material and then make sure your purchase order and invoice clearly shows the grade of material used for the board. Even if you make your own boards, choosing better materials and documenting them with receipts and photos will go a long way towards protecting yourself. Of course, if the photos show a design fault that actually caused the fire, then you have tied your own noose...
It will also help if you can use UL/CSA rated external stand-alone power supplies since mains do not go inside the project. Many small consumer devices now use this method of avoiding that particular safety certification.
ensen.
Probably not on point on insurance BUT common sence - If you have your amp on you listen to the music, if something goes wrong in the amp you'll notice that Very quickly, apart from that amp has no parts that can set your house on fire instantly(well caps can explode but not likely to set smthng on fire). If turned off amp cought on fire then blame the one who built it... < very little chance...
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