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Old 8th May 2012, 05:47 AM   #1431
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quote:
[QUOTE=buzzforb;3015795]This reminded me of one of the really great assets of the F5, GRUNT. I am not sure i have enough of a difficult load to push these things. I cannot imagine what the 4 pair version is capable of. I guess i will have to hook both channels up and give a listen tomorrow. QUOTE]

Yes and that is way (me porsonaly but I think I am not the only one)
are realy watching this tread and realy apreciate al the hard work you are doing.

Pano started a tread about How much power one realy need.
By using 2 low frequency signals at -12 dB (the low frequency is Digital meter friendly) he can prety much help to understand and estimate the real power that one is likley to demand from the F5
In my case the most I am likley to ask of it is peacks of 19 V
A Test. How much Voltage (power) do your speakers need?
This on a pair of Polk LSi15 they are 4 homs nominal and prety demanding
but I have a smallish room so...

I will have a stab at a balanced F5 before I go Turbo but (gredy boiz) Turbo is going to be eventualy.

So once again TANKS FOR ALL YOUR EFFORT
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Old 8th May 2012, 10:21 AM   #1432
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What the diodes do for you is get the full available power from a given output fet. So if your thing is to hear the diodes, then you should build an amp that may seem borderline power wise under number F5 conditions, and what you will get is more power simply as a result of the diodes present. Under full power, a single output pair, can source about 12a off current due to the Vdrop os Rs. With the diodes, you get the full 28A or therabouts. I am still not sure about the whole Class A vs A/B figure in this scenario, but you can see that you double your avaiable power just by adding the diodes. If I am wrong, I hope someone will correct me.
You also delve into the questions of whether or not an amp sounds better having more power than needed. Some folks like having a 200W amp even though they will never use more than 50W. Perhaps you can hear a difference. Nelson has suggested that his customers say as much as you move through the progression of his Pass stuff. I don't know personally. Forgive me Nelson if I am remebering this wrong.
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Old 8th May 2012, 10:33 AM   #1433
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Originally Posted by buzzforb View Post
What the diodes do for you is get the full available power from a given output fet. So if your thing is to hear the diodes, then you should build an amp that may seem borderline power wise under number F5 conditions, and what you will get is more power simply as a result of the diodes present.
this is confusing.
The F5 will give full power without the diode bypassing Rs.
The diodes allows more peak current to flow if the speaker demands that.

That extra current demand does not coincide with a nominal speaker impedance. The speaker at that transient demand moment has an effective impedance much lower than nominal. That is not the same as more power delivery. It is avoidance of current clipping. An amplifier that current clips is just as bad as an amplifier that voltage clips. Both are incapable of meeting the demand set by the signal and the load.
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Old 8th May 2012, 11:08 AM   #1434
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Thanks for the correction and clarification. I was hoping for more experienced input. Based on what you know, How would you figure th rated power of an amp using the diodes vs one without them? Does the formulae for Class A change?
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Old 8th May 2012, 11:49 AM   #1435
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Originally Posted by buzzforb View Post
news.
86dB/W/m for 4 ohm is 89dB/2.83V/m
With 0.6V across the source resistors, diode die at 25C, output current total would be at ~1.5A.
Half of that going through one driver makes 89.5dB continuous.
(in a "normal" room, me find that a rather uncomfortable SPL)

Ask yourself which mechanism would stop diode temperature to creep up higher and higher once it starts to sweat.
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Old 8th May 2012, 02:09 PM   #1436
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Originally Posted by jacco vermeulen View Post

Ask yourself which mechanism would stop diode temperature to creep up higher and higher once it starts to sweat.
IMO once they start to sweat they conduct earlier and start to sweat a bit more

With no heath sink they will stop to conduct when temperature go hi enough for diode to pop. Luky that most time they pop open circuit not like mosfets, one may ewen ear them pop if music is not to loud but not big worry about that the smell is prety nasty.
but if you miss both clues most probably one will find out next time he goes near F5T with DM

With heath sink it all change especialy if on main one that has litle thermistors taking care of mosfet temperature.
those shuld be prety constant at around 50 C few wats trough diodes won't make much difference for sink designed for say 250W.
And as temperature won't change much diodes wil be pre conditioned to conduct at almost a constant place so no difference between low and loud transients and laud and laud transients
Or not?
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Old 8th May 2012, 02:15 PM   #1437
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[QUOTE=jacco vermeulen;3016155]
Half of that going through one driver makes 89.5dB continuous.
(in a "normal" room, me find that a rather uncomfortable SPL)

QUOTE]

Yes prety much same over here but not many have SPL meter so Pano test may help.

Camon dudes it only takes 5 minutes to do and may save you loads of dosh.

Besides F5 is First watt where the First watt is all important the Turbo version is for gready boiz with most probably same compromises in sound quality.
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Old 8th May 2012, 03:15 PM   #1438
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Originally Posted by Bksabath View Post
IMO once they start to sweat they conduct earlier and start to sweat a bit more

With no heath sink they will stop to conduct when temperature go hi enough for diode to pop. Luky that most time they pop open circuit not like mosfets, one may ewen ear them pop if music is not to loud but not big worry about that the smell is prety nasty.
but if you miss both clues most probably one will find out next time he goes near F5T with DM

With heath sink it all change especialy if on main one that has litle thermistors taking care of mosfet temperature.
those shuld be prety constant at around 50 C few wats trough diodes won't make much difference for sink designed for say 250W.
And as temperature won't change much diodes wil be pre conditioned to conduct at almost a constant place so no difference between low and loud transients and laud and laud transients
Or not?
Not saying that they should not be on heat-sink, just that they do not generate much heat themselves. Most of the heat they will be subjected to will be that of the Mos-fets. Just because they are on the heat sink does not change this. Any situation that would change their conduction, and as a result their temperature in a rapid fashion, would result in similar outcome even on heat sink. We are talking instantaneous current here.

I think that Jacco is suggesting that pushing the bias point too far in relation to the diode conduction simply negates the stability that the source resistor brings to the mos-fet and increases the chance that you will have some sort of fault occur. If i am thinking correctly (probably not), it is still about the mosfet and how it maintains its control over the circuit. As Andrew has stated, that the ideal scenario is one where the diode never does anything other than handle extreme momentary transients.

Let the corrections begin!
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Old 8th May 2012, 04:29 PM   #1439
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Originally Posted by buzzforb View Post
Not saying that they should not be on heat-sink, just that they do not generate much heat themselves. Most of the heat they will be subjected to will be that of the Mos-fets. Just because they are on the heat sink does not change this. Any situation that would change their conduction, and as a result their temperature in a rapid fashion, would result in similar outcome even on heat sink. We are talking instantaneous current here.

I think that Jacco is suggesting that pushing the bias point too far in relation to the diode conduction simply negates the stability that the source resistor brings to the mos-fet and increases the chance that you will have some sort of fault occur. If i am thinking correctly (probably not), it is still about the mosfet and how it maintains its control over the circuit. As Andrew has stated, that the ideal scenario is one where the diode never does anything other than handle extreme momentary transients.

Let the corrections begin!
I think you got that right too! In other words, I agree with what andrewT has said recently. I'm not sure many of the other posters were seeing it this way??? My opinion basically is; Get all the classA you can afford(HeatSinks, $$$, etc.), Take care of those continuos, reoccuring common transients with the ClassAB capability. Take care of the real headrtoom issues with the diodes. Something like 25Wrms ClassA, 50Wrms ClassAB, 100wrms ClassABw/Diodes...
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Old 8th May 2012, 04:36 PM   #1440
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Since I had someone agree with me, I am quitting. I just peaked and dont want to ruin it by talking further
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