I could write very similar words, thanks for impression......
"more open, more distinct, sense of position, easier to separate, more detail on lower output level, no sense of hardness"
)
OK but do you have a preference?
We can agree on the above but I have spent some more time listening now and as is often the case with these auditions it is down to voices for me. Listening to Dark Side of the Moon and I can hear the vocals probably clearer on the BA2 side. The BA2 seems to have a richer mid-range and whilst the BA3 seems to give a better spatial arrangement of instruments and the like I don't find I'm so drawn in to the musical flow as with the BA2. I have also noted more bass weight on the BA2 if less well defined. Now what would happen if I were to twiddle my P3?
I like very much this speaking of Zen Mod...
......"who needs another amp , learning is much more important
"
and I hear at least the new parts one week and I decide later, mostly I prefer the new one first and "when the honeymoon is over....(Nelson)" I sometimes go back and forth. And after I longer time I have mostly two favorites and at these level I cannot decide often really what I want....
For pres I cannot decide between Pumpkin, Aleph P and maybe BBA-3.....we will see...
......"who needs another amp , learning is much more important
"and I hear at least the new parts one week and I decide later, mostly I prefer the new one first and "when the honeymoon is over....(Nelson)" I sometimes go back and forth. And after I longer time I have mostly two favorites and at these level I cannot decide often really what I want....
For pres I cannot decide between Pumpkin, Aleph P and maybe BBA-3.....we will see...
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As a general observation the BA-3 places voices and instruments further back in the soundstage, away from the listener certainly with P3 set to the mid-position. This afternoon I moved the wiper of P3 towards R3 which seemed to bring everthing forward a little towards the listener and opened up the sound or gave it a little more 'air'. This was much preferred, however, I'm still finding it lacking in bass weight and it can't compete with that natural and life-like sound of the BA-2 midrange. What would happen if I removed the voltage reg?
Hi backbones,
I try to discuss sound with you.....
indeed BA-3 has a special sound, compared to pre´s with feedback I have.
The sound is to my ears very detailed and more detailed than Fback pre´s and the details are colored and celebrated in a way I did not hear before....
On the other side the FB pre´s are more direct and because they make less atmosphere around the sound with details ,they give me the feeling that the core of the sound is more present.
The way the "old" fronted plays is the way I am used to by many amps, and normally we hear music at the concert hall with FB amps, this sound may be "normal" for us. (good argument, isn't it)
I just try to give the BA-3 sound a chance to be more "natural" in an "unelectrified" sense.
I understand I bit what you mean, I remember one sequence a sax playing on a cd and BA-3 made a very mystifying sound and my X0 clone made the sax in a way I was used too...I was really irritated over the "truth" BA-3 presented.
May be I am completely wrong, I have the feeling that the NFB circuits handle the sound partially in another way and sometimes against my expectations....
If this is a special way to color music or more close to the "truth" we will see....
But I am so happy I can make these experiences so easy and cheap with the circuits Nelson gives us. When I imagine how much money I would have spent buying audio magazines and only one or two new amps and pres in the shop, forced to decide me...... only in the last two years.....oh God!
We are really privileged to take part in this forum and privileged to get every year new amps and new ideas from Nelson....
So Backbones thanks for your open words and
................many thanks Master...
I try to discuss sound with you.....
indeed BA-3 has a special sound, compared to pre´s with feedback I have.
The sound is to my ears very detailed and more detailed than Fback pre´s and the details are colored and celebrated in a way I did not hear before....
On the other side the FB pre´s are more direct and because they make less atmosphere around the sound with details ,they give me the feeling that the core of the sound is more present.
The way the "old" fronted plays is the way I am used to by many amps, and normally we hear music at the concert hall with FB amps, this sound may be "normal" for us. (good argument, isn't it
)I just try to give the BA-3 sound a chance to be more "natural" in an "unelectrified" sense.
I understand I bit what you mean, I remember one sequence a sax playing on a cd and BA-3 made a very mystifying sound and my X0 clone made the sax in a way I was used too...I was really irritated over the "truth" BA-3 presented.
May be I am completely wrong, I have the feeling that the NFB circuits handle the sound partially in another way and sometimes against my expectations....
If this is a special way to color music or more close to the "truth" we will see....
But I am so happy I can make these experiences so easy and cheap with the circuits Nelson gives us. When I imagine how much money I would have spent buying audio magazines and only one or two new amps and pres in the shop, forced to decide me...... only in the last two years.....oh God!
We are really privileged to take part in this forum and privileged to get every year new amps and new ideas from Nelson....
So Backbones thanks for your open words and
................many thanks Master...
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My first impression about BA-3 would be that it creates a very spacious and airy listening experience. As i hear it now, I would think that folks who love listening to music that reveals or shows off the recording venue. This is very preliminary as I have not even given the caps a chance to break in. I will be trying many different configurations with this setup, including different caps, output transistors, and even thermal insulation. So as not to bog this thread, I will only reveal listening stuff here. To hear more about other permutations, check out this thread.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/201186-humble-beginnings-d-3.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/201186-humble-beginnings-d-3.html
It is great to see people discussing the sounds and I totally agree with generg about the joy of not having to buy hifi magazines because we can discover the important aspects of sound reproduction for ourselves. I haven't bought a magazine in years, not since making these amps.
One aspect to reviewing is of course how we use language. What do we mean by 'airy' for example. Is it a sense of shimmering space around a note in what sounds like a large room or is it that the note can be placed clearly in a soundstage, which has dimensions of depth, width and height?
This sound is largely false anyway because it is constructed in a studio to create a pleasant listening experience and is not what one finds when enjoying live music. So generg is right to question what is the sound of a real saxophone. Something we are used to hearing on a recording or something that is live and acoustic.
Also we must compare one sound to another. The good thing about this site is that we are building the same amps (or near enough) so we should be able to do this otherwise when we talk of detail and the like it makes no sense unless it is in comparison to something else.
This business of space and atmosphere is again a difficult one. As I have posted before the listener can alter this by altering their interconnects. Twisted pair interconnects in my experience can be loosely twisted (twists per unit length) and this will give rise to an 'airy' and atmoshperic sound but bigger and less well defined musical images. If you highly twist them they will push the image back, away from the listener and create smaller, more discrete and better arranged musical images but with less atmosphere and 'air'. The difference here is one of impedence and capacitance as the conductor is kept the same. The more you twist the greater the capacitance (I beleive). This simple observation on my part seems a consistent finding. So I would extrapolate from this questions about impedence and capacitance in any new circuit we build and ask, whether such alterations can be linked to certain musical experiences in general.
One aspect to reviewing is of course how we use language. What do we mean by 'airy' for example. Is it a sense of shimmering space around a note in what sounds like a large room or is it that the note can be placed clearly in a soundstage, which has dimensions of depth, width and height?
This sound is largely false anyway because it is constructed in a studio to create a pleasant listening experience and is not what one finds when enjoying live music. So generg is right to question what is the sound of a real saxophone. Something we are used to hearing on a recording or something that is live and acoustic.
Also we must compare one sound to another. The good thing about this site is that we are building the same amps (or near enough) so we should be able to do this otherwise when we talk of detail and the like it makes no sense unless it is in comparison to something else.
This business of space and atmosphere is again a difficult one. As I have posted before the listener can alter this by altering their interconnects. Twisted pair interconnects in my experience can be loosely twisted (twists per unit length) and this will give rise to an 'airy' and atmoshperic sound but bigger and less well defined musical images. If you highly twist them they will push the image back, away from the listener and create smaller, more discrete and better arranged musical images but with less atmosphere and 'air'. The difference here is one of impedence and capacitance as the conductor is kept the same. The more you twist the greater the capacitance (I beleive). This simple observation on my part seems a consistent finding. So I would extrapolate from this questions about impedence and capacitance in any new circuit we build and ask, whether such alterations can be linked to certain musical experiences in general.
If i were to try to describe the sound in another way, I would say that it doesn't feel like a rock concert where 1000W amps are trying to push the sound of the music through a stadium. It sounds more like a small venue/ jazz club, where the music is just present. Definintely more sparkle up top than anything I have heard thus far. I am very eager to try the BA3B after hearing. The board i listend to last night, had Solen caps, the next one will have clarity caps and then the last will have Obbligato Oil. Its Christmas early this year
I have not obbligato oil, but normal obbligato. I must still try them.
At the moment I have build in some cheaper and more fresh sounding Mundorf...
I have the ASC oil in my speakers network in front of the Lowthers, they do a very good job there, making the Lowther more tame....
yes I really like to hear oil........
In the my Borberly Jfet preamp from the Jfet articles he wrote, I tried both Obbligato Oil and Clarity ESA. I liked the Obbligato better. Both were good, but clarity cap sounded clinical, while Obbligato sounded more fluid. Should have lateral output and other BA3 board assembled today, so unfortunately have more listening to do.
Good luck!
i must go to the basement looking for the Obbligatos....
I will see how much these Obbligatos are. Are they the Gold Premium?
Which Mundorf were you using (was this the 10uF cap?)? I'm using the Clarity Cap 250V at present.
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OK. P3 moved further towards R3 with further sound changes. Listening to Louis Prima (he is in mono so this helps audition left channel BA-3 and right channel BA-2) and as I turned P3 so the image of his voice seemed to snap into focus. There was suddenly a strong central focus between the speakers instead of him sounding a little distant on the left. I can clearly focus on the guitars on the left channel in Dark Side of the Moon which I couldn't do before. The amp is settling in as well sounding generally smoother.
Very interesting. Agree with buzzforb--more sparkle on top.
Very interesting. Agree with buzzforb--more sparkle on top.
I would argue that your Clarity Caps would probably match or be very similar to the Obbligato Gold Film. If you want a different sound, I would go with the Obbligato in Oil. Look at it as a completely different approach to what you have now.
has anybody an idea how to handle 4 x P3 with BBA-3?
A nice bottle of wine and Good CD/LP
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