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Old 5th December 2009, 09:56 PM   #81
alazira is offline alazira  United States
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Originally Posted by thanh1973 View Post
Even that might not been enough. They still don't know for sure what contribution CO2 has made on globabl temperature rises.
As I said before, they are moving on this out of fear. They don't know the full story.
Even if we stopped every singal coal fired power station today we would still be emitting massive amounts of CO2.
There are huge amounts of CO2 given off in the building industry from concrete. There are also many other industrial processes that emit massive amounts of CO2 without using any electricity what so ever.

If the ice sheets were melting and you guys were gambling men, I can tell you now the most likely cause for that are warm ocean currents.

Now for the big problem, that we can't control.
If the human population ceased to emit any CO2, then we are still not safe.
This is assuming that CO2 is playing a major contribution (which is still unknown) in gloval temperature rises, then what you guys may not know is that the ocean contains massive amounts of dissolved CO2.
Unlike solids which become mole soluble with increasing temperature, gases are less soluble with increasing temperature.
So, as the ocean temperature rises more CO2 (potentially several orders of magnitude more than we produce) will be released.
This could happen due to increased solar activity or more likely due to volcanic activity in the ocean floor.
Anyway if the water temperature increases due to ocean volcanic activity, then it will be the increased water temp will melt the ice not the air temp.

The problem with all of this, is it is a bit like the chicken or the egg, what controls what. Scientists still don't know. All they know is their is more CO2 in the air, they don't know by how much it contributes to global temperature fluctuations.
Hi thanh1973,
All this means is that they'll try to regulate the sun US Answer To Global Warming: Giant Space Mirrors and Balloons » GroovyGreen.com – Start Today :: Save Tomorrow
The underwater volcanic activity would be difficult though. Since more CO2 causes the ocean to become more acidic and thus dissolves more limestone releasing even more CO2 the solution is to make the ocean less acidic Oceans face acid test › Science Features (ABC Science) one just has to calculate the amount of lime we would need to pour into the ocean

Last edited by alazira; 5th December 2009 at 10:03 PM.
 
Old 5th December 2009, 10:09 PM   #82
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If the human population ceased to emit any CO2, then we are still not safe.
Hard to argue with that. I guess we could all stop exhaling.

You guys quit picking on Al. He is a great guy to have a beer with at a bar b q.
 
Old 5th December 2009, 10:13 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
Willingly, knowingly, intentionally or not, we should not expect scientists to be 100% honest or objective, just because they are scientists
Most scientists are honest. If I had to put a figure to it I would say at least 95%.
There are also scientists that are intelligent and scientists that aren't intelligent (believe it or not).
I work with some guys that don't have a university education and would absolutlely wipe the floor with some scientists with PhDs in terms of intelligence.
However there are also guys that are very bright with PhDs.
It is a mixed bag. It is the same with every profession.

The main problem surrounding this issue, is that scientists can only draw conclusions from the data they have in front of them (which may not be enough).
So the scientist says "it LOOKS likes X is happening, which COULD lead to Y happening in 30 years."

The media (or people like Al Gore) then say how can we make this more exciting.
So the media says "scientists say X is happening, and 30 years time Y will happen"
 
Old 5th December 2009, 11:14 PM   #84
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Most scientists are honest,they just begin an experiment with a hypothesis of the outcome and tend to interpret the data to prove their hypothesis. It is human nature, that is why it is important to have an overseeing community of other scientist to evaluate new discoveries. I tend to disregard individual claims until they are collaborated. Unfortunately our sensationalist media tends to grab anything new and sensational and run with it. I have found most members of this forum tend to have a healthy understanding of the nature of science and have a skeptic nature but willing to interpret honest data presented. That is why I enjoy it.

Bill
 
Old 5th December 2009, 11:41 PM   #85
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Originally Posted by wirewiggler View Post
Most scientists are honest,they just begin an experiment with a hypothesis of the outcome

and tend to interpret the data to prove their hypothesis.

Bill
And why they can willingly choose to ignore "facts", or should we say information

At this moment, the computer model they use to "predict" the nature is inadequate, offcourse

But its very naive to believe everythings is just going straight

But it also over and over again appears to be a continious "war" between the real scientists, and many many "whether specialists"
And the true scientists are outnumbered, and ignored
Some are literally banned from events, really
A few scientists seem to be getting together to get a full picture of this "whether reporters mess", whats true and whats not
It will most likely be somewhere in between

Its a huge money ball in full run, and it doesnt stop
And politicians are not to be trusted either
At least I dont know any
I dont think we have any idea what goes on behind the "curtain"
How many people take advantage of the situation, if you know what I mean
When theres big money around, theres plenty of corruption

But its a good thing they think about makingbetter smaller cars etc
And that China is getting help to invent construction materials to build all the housing the really need
Its so huge that the consequences could become insane if using ordinary materials
Stuff like that
Ofcourse its good to think about things, but panic doesnt help anyone

Say, whats the use if we spend so much money right now, that we cannot afford what may be way better in just a few years

Btw, wasnt there something lately about the ozon hole totally unexpectedly was beginning to close in certain areas, and that they couldnt understand why, because the values/numbers didnt ad up
Just something nature did on its own

But its beyond doubt that some parts of the world are having really difficult conditions due to the climate changes, how ever small they may be at the present
If we can really trust what they tell us
Im not really sure about all of it

Last edited by tinitus; 6th December 2009 at 12:01 AM.
 
Old 6th December 2009, 12:50 AM   #86
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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in short

Its mainly based on the work of whether specialists and computer analasysists
I think they are what you call meteorologists
Wheather reporters, hurricane warning centers, and stuff like that
I dont doubt that they believe in what they do
And that they are very skilled in their field
But I dont doubt either that they enjoy their new powerful position in the new world order
And it gives a lot of money to their work

The real scientists who knows about what goes on in places we cannot see, is locked out and ignored, and get no money to do theirs
They may even hold the last bits of information thats needed to make the computer model give a better picture of whats happening, and why
Thats what I dont like

Last edited by tinitus; 6th December 2009 at 12:59 AM.
 
Old 6th December 2009, 02:30 AM   #87
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Here is some light reading for those interested in the science of things.
The Heartland Institute - Environment Policy and Freedom

There are some links to other discussions about the politics and economics of things too.
If you can make it through all of the science (assuming it is real science), economics, and politics and still have something that resembles a sane and stable family life you will get my vote for sainthood. I spent 20 years fixing meteorological systems so I am aware of some aspects of the discussion. I was however a mere repair tech so alas - not an engineer or scientist.
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Old 6th December 2009, 02:39 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Steve Dunlap View Post
You guys quit picking on Al. He is a great guy to have a beer with at a bar b q.
And just how much ozone and Co2 do ya think ya used up by burning charcoal and drinking beverages that emit Co2 Steve!!!

What say we get together and take a couple of your Krill amps with us to the next one - maybe we can talk "Al" into getting you a grant to develop an environmentally "Energy Star" approved class A amp. Donno know if we can actually make one - but spending the grant bucks will be fun.....
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Old 6th December 2009, 08:07 AM   #89
SY is offline SY  United States
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Wish I'd seen this thread earlier. Though I'm tempted to weigh in with my own opinions, I'll note that this is an issue which is swimming in politics and is thus outside the bounds of diyAudio. Sorry, gentlemen.
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