Is a mini-Aleph using BF862 possible?

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
I have recently been looking for a circuit for another class A amp to build, due to a couple of ideas I've been pondering;

1. I have built two or three "Le Monstres", with some success, as discussed in a thread on the Solid State forum, where I mentioned my interest in using modern equivalents for the (mostly non-availabl;e) original components, perhaps using SMD components, at least for the jfet stage. This idea seems to fail due to the non-availability of p-channel jfets in SMD format. I can get the 2n5457/2n5460 series, but these seem to be a poor replacement for the 2SK170/2SJ74 originally used.

2. I am interested in the Mini-A, or (in principle) any other cut-down Pass amp - the F5 I have in the living room sounds terrific, and I would like to find something around 8-10W (about the size of the original Monstre...) for my (much smaller) office.

3. I am interested in trying out something really single-ended like the Aleph-J, rather than the symmetric designs I've done so far.

4. The BF862 is clearly very highly regarded by people here, so it seems a good candidate, but doesn't have any p-channel equivalent, which rules it out for a "Monstre" redesign.

Putting all these thoughts together, I am wondering if anyone knows of a schematic for a 8-10W class A amp, single-ended, using maybe BF862s in a long-tailed pair (or something) at the input, probably mosfets in the output stage. Failing that, or something close, is anyone interested in playing around with the design of such a circuit?

Of course, if nothing turns up I may end up doing a Mini-A, which seems quite appealing, but the idea of a BF862 input stage appeals also. I should add I have read the BF862 preamp thread and am considering one of those also, but that's a little different. (And intended for the living room, not the office, anyhow...)

Thanks in advance for any input.

Cheers

Nigel
 
Putting all these thoughts together, I am wondering if anyone knows of a schematic for a 8-10W class A amp, single-ended, using maybe BF862s in a long-tailed pair (or something) at the input, probably mosfets in the output stage. Failing that, or something close, is anyone interested in playing around with the design of such a circuit?

Nelson did a take on the JLH amp, I think he called it the PLH. Look up Nelson's paper on that, it's an interesting build option that allows you to adjust it from SE to PP (kind of).
 
....

3. I am interested in trying out something really single-ended like the Aleph-J, rather than the symmetric designs I've done so far.

4. The BF862 is clearly very highly regarded....

Hi,
here you got Mini-A-J reconfigured to use BF862 as input LTP. Output devices are Fairchild's P-channel MOSFETs (you can use IRFP9240 too but they have a certain anomaly that produces a bit more distorsion).
If you are familiar with Aleph concept there is nothing really new here, just watch PS polarity ;)
 

Attachments

  • Mini-A-BF862.gif
    Mini-A-BF862.gif
    7.2 KB · Views: 3,082
Last edited:
Hi,
here you got Mini-A-J reconfigured to use BF862 as input LTP. Output devices are Fairchild's P-channel MOSFETs (you can use IRFP9240 too but they have a certain anomaly that produces a bit more distorsion).
If you are familiar with Aleph concept there is nothing really new here, just watch PS polarity ;)

juma:

Bingo! That looks exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for. A very quick glance suggests it's like the Aleph J with all polarities switched (to accomodate the BF862, I presume) and with only one output pair. Did you already have this schematic figured out? Have you built it, by any chance?
Did I miss discussion of this somewhere?

I already have some questions:

1. Any idea of output power? Doesn't have to be very precise but I'll need some kind of estimation of heatsink size, for instance. An estimate like "about Le Monstre size" or "about F4 size" is good enough.

2. Any idea of bias current through the mosfets? My guess would be about 0.5A, but that is VERY unscientific. I hope it doesn't have to be biased as high as the F5 or something. Reading the Aleph J article closely would probably help - any other suggestions?

3. I gather the FQA12P20 is discontinued - I may still be able to get a few, but I wouldn't bet on it. Apart from standard IRFP9240s, any other suggested substitutes?

Bigun: I'll take a look at the PLH, but I think juma's suggestion is what I'm looking for. Thanks anyway.

Cheers

Nigel
 
juma:
...I already have some questions:....
There is nothing to figure out about this schematic - it is Mini Aleph-J with reverse JFET's, MOSFET's and PS polarities to accommodate (as you noticed) N-channel JFETs on input.

Answers:
1. It is SE circuit (it can work in class A only - and somewhat more over it, thanks to the Aleph CCS) and its' power output is limited by load value. For 16 ohms speakers output voltage sets the limit; for 4 ohms speakers the limit is imposed by output current, for 8 ohms it's both. To find exact power figure, find Aleph power spreadsheet (wuffwaff made them I think) in old threads. Amp built by this schematic will produce about 8W at 16 ohms speaker, 14W at 8 ohms speaker; 18W at 6 ohms speaker and 13.5W at 4 ohms speaker

2. As it is drawn on the schematic bias current through output pair is 1.2A~1.3A - it is predominantly set by value of R16 (0R5 5W)

3. Any similar MOSFET can be used, it's just those from IR that have that anomaly.

Your questions indicate that you are not very familiar with Aleph amps, so read the old threads, Aleph service manuals and articles on Zen 2., 3. and 4. to learn more about Aleph CCS.

Have fun ! ;)
 
Last edited:
So I've been reading up on the Zen documentation and Aleph threads here, as juma recommended. I don't think I've "grokked" it all yet, but I'm getting there slowly, and will keep reading. Meanwhile I'm starting planning and component collection.

There is nothing to figure out about this schematic - it is Mini Aleph-J with reverse JFET's, MOSFET's and PS polarities to accommodate (as you noticed) N-channel JFETs on input.

I've searched here, and can't find any specific reference to "Mini Aleph-J", although it's like looking for a needle in a haystack when you remember just how much stuff there is on "Aleph-J" and "Mini-Aleph"... Did you have a specific schematic/thread/discussion in mind, or were you referring just to stuff in "Mini" jfet-fronted versions in general? I'd be grateful for any specific reference if you have one. (I realise it would be for p-channel jfets in the LTP, but it should be part of my reading if it's there.)

Answers:
1. It is SE circuit (it can work in class A only - and somewhat more over it, thanks to the Aleph CCS) and its' power output is limited by load value. For 16 ohms speakers output voltage sets the limit; for 4 ohms speakers the limit is imposed by output current, for 8 ohms it's both. To find exact power figure, find Aleph power spreadsheet (wuffwaff made them I think) in old threads. Amp built by this schematic will produce about 8W at 16 ohms speaker, 14W at 8 ohms speaker; 18W at 6 ohms speaker and 13.5W at 4 ohms speaker

2. As it is drawn on the schematic bias current through output pair is 1.2A~1.3A - it is predominantly set by value of R16 (0R5 5W)

That's plenty of power for what I have in mind - even smaller would be enough. I don't need a more precise number. This bias appears to be a little lower than the standard Aleph J, with half the number of mosfets, so is it reasonable to guess a little less than half the heatsinking is necessary? I have a nice heatsink which is 30cm x 20 cm with 38mm fins; in fact, except for the fins being 38mm instead of 48, all other dimensions match a 20cm length of Conrad MF30. Oh, and anodized black. Anyone like to guess as to whether it'll be enough? My rough calculations suggest yes, but not by a big margin.... (I don't have a mountable power resistor to measure it, and can't get hold of one easily...)

3. Any similar MOSFET can be used, it's just those from IR that have that anomaly.

The Fairchild part definitely has to be imported - I previously got two from Farnell-Newark in Sao Paulo for my F5, but they don't have any now, and if the part is now out of production they won't be getting any more. Importing to Brazil is a slow and expensive, so I'd like to see about alternatives. My local place has IRFP9140, but this seems a little different from the datasheet, and in any event, I think I read somewhere here that all the IR P-channel mosfets have the same problem (???). Does anyone have a diferent suggestion? I'd consider a lower power device if anyone has one in mind, since 8-10W into 8 ohms, say, would be sufficient. If no-one has other suggestions I'll just have to import.

On a related question, does the upper mosfet (in the current source - Q6 in your schematic) have to be the same as the lower one? In fact, it seems to me that the extra distortion in the IR devices is only important in the gain device, right? (I ask because I happen to have two IRFP9240s in my part box that I ended up not using in the F5... If I can track down two better devices for Q3 then problem solved...)

juma:
On a different topic, I read up on the adaptor boards you used in the BF862 preamp (which I also plan having a go at) and am wondering about "adapting" this idea here. Of course, there's no reason not to do a full PCB, I guess, but I like using proto board, and it has the advantage that you can fiddle with things more easily later, so I was thinking of putting the first stage (input and LTP) on a small PCB, and maybe the circuitry around Q1 and Q4 (which is just a voltage regulator circuit, right?). The idea would be to do the PCB with SMD components, as far as possible, and do the high-current (and high-power) stuff around the mosfets through-the-hole and point-to=point. The datasheet for the MJE243 says it's a 4A device, which suggests heatsinking and so forth, but how many of the resistors and things around it need to be higher power rated? SMD resistors at 1/8 W are probably OK for the LTP stuff, I'd guess, but maybe the ones around Q1 and Q4 have to be a little heavier duty? Any thoughts?

Your questions indicate that you are not very familiar with Aleph amps, so read the old threads, Aleph service manuals and articles on Zen 2., 3. and 4. to learn more about Aleph CCS.

Have fun ! ;)

I'm working on it! And fun is the main point for me... :) And as always, thanks for any help.

Cheers

Nigel
 
Last call is at the end of the year, so they can still be ordered,
although some distributors stop dealing with parts the
moment the notice is issued. We already had a bunch of
them on order and had to insist on the contracted delivery.

:cool:

I think maybe I'd better pay up and order some from abroad. (As much as I hate paying 70% import taxes... and that's payable on the postage & packing too!!! :mad::mad:) I'd still like to know what other options are out there, though... Nelson, somewhere you remarked on a substitute by Harris, but without specifying a part number; are there other manufacturers out there with equivalent parts? ST or ON, maybe?

Cheers

Nigel
 
I've searched here, and can't find any specific reference to "Mini Aleph-J"
You probably won't find it as such ;) There is a known project called Mini Aleph, and there is another project named Aleph-J. Since they share the same basic concept it's easy to cross them and appropriately name the mixture

I have a nice heatsink which is 30cm x 20 cm with 38mm fins; ....
That should be enough for both channels - if it gets too hot (more than 55C on heatsink) you should lower the bias by using the 0R66 resistor instead of aforementioned 0R5. That will lower the amp's power, but it will still be enough for your needs

I think I read somewhere here that all the IR P-channel mosfets have the same problem (???). Does anyone have a diferent suggestion?
Yes, the problem is known and Mr. Pass wrote about it several times. It can be measured, but it's not for certain if it can be heard - Stein (member on this forum) used P-channel IRFP MOSFET's in his F5 amps with success and reported no problems (and he has some very respectable speakers to test those amps)

... circuitry around Q1 and Q4 (which is just a voltage regulator circuit, right?). ....
Not really, MJE243 (or BD139 - it's not crucial) is a CCS (16-18mA) for input LTP and Q4 delivers constant current (5-6mA) for LED1 which serves as constant voltage source for Q1 CCS. This is enough data to calculate dissipation for every device in input circuit ;)

Have fun ! :up:
 
Last edited:
You probably won't find it as such ;) There is a known project called Mini Aleph, and there is another project named Aleph-J. Since they share the same basic concept it's easy to cross them and appropriately name the mixture

Ah! This means you did the work here, easy or not, so many thanks!

Not really, MJE243 (or BD139 - it's not crucial) is a CCS (16-18mA) for input LTP and Q4 delivers constant current (5-6mA) for LED1 which serves as constant voltage source for Q1 CCS. This is enough data to calculate dissipation for every device in input circuit ;)

If the current is that low then I can almost certainly put a SMD bjt in place of the MJE243 and put all of that part on the smaller PCB too. 18mA through (at most) 56R means 0.0031V across the resistor and about 0.00005W to dissipate... No worries at all with the little 1/8W SMD resistors....:eek:

Any practical thoughts about doing the first stage SMD? For instance, in the Aleph threadsthere is a lot of discussion about thermally coupling the jfets in the LTP. In this case the BF862s certainly can't be held together in the way described for 2SJ74s, but how about gluing a little copper plate on top ofthe two of them or something... How have other people done this?

Thanks again for all the help

Cheers

Nigel
 
If the current is that low then I can almost certainly put a SMD bjt in place of the MJE243 and put all of that part on the smaller PCB too. 18mA through (at most) 56R means 0.0031V across the resistor and about 0.00005W to dissipate... No worries at all with the little 1/8W SMD resistors....:eek:
Sorry, but no again ;)
V=R*I => 56R * 0.018A=1V
P=V*I => 1V * 0.018A=18mW
Still nothing to worry about, but please be gentle with Ohm's law ;)
MJE243 will dissipate about 17V * 18mA=306mW which might be a bit too much even for TO-92 package, let alone SMD (the rule of the thumb is that you shouldn't use the device on more than one third of declared Pd)


... how about gluing a little copper plate on top of the two of them...
It will work great, just make that copper plate small and thin (to avoid thermal inertia). I don't couple them thermally since they are easy to match - 90% of 500 pieces batch I bought are with Idss of 13 to 13.5 mA
 
Last edited:
Sorry, but no again ;)
V=R*I => 56R * 0.018A=1V
P=V*I => 1V * 0.018A=18mW
Still nothing to worry about, but please be gentle with Ohm's law ;)

D**N!! That'll teach me to post before drinking coffee in the morning...:mad::mad::eek::eek::eek:

MJE243 will dissipate about 17V * 18mA=306mW which might be a bit too much even for TO-92 package, let alone SMD

Well, maybe stick with the MJE243 or BD139 (which is easy to get here).

It will work great, just make that copper plate small and thin (to avoid thermal inertia). I don't couple them thermally since they are easy to match - 90% of 500 pieces batch I bought are with Idss of 13 to 13.5 mA

I only have 20 of them, but let's see how matching goes - I presume here that I only need two matched pairs for the LTPs, and not a matched four? That is, channel-to-channel matching is not necessary, right? (And Q4 doesn't need matching at all... Does it even need to be the same model jfet? I guess not...)

Many thanks for your patience with beginner questions.

Cheers

Nigel
 
Hi again. I've just spent a very frustrating couple of hours trying to buy the p-channel mosfets online. This can sometimes be surprisingly difficult if you live in Brazil; here's a little rant:

Many companies won't ship to Brazil at all, either because of bad experiences with the import barriers, or because they have "partners" in Sao Paulo or somewhere. So, for example, Farnell's UJK and "export" websites both list the Fairchild part, but won't ship to Brazil, presumably because Farnell-Newark in Sao Paulo has "first rights" on my business, but *their* site shows the part as unavailable, even internationally... :mad::mad::mad: So, even if I am willing to pay the shockingly high import taxes, I just can't get the part at all.... The other company linked to above has a $100 minimum order for international purchases, so that's out too, I'm afraid, unless I wait to collect together a big enough list.

OK, that's the rant over, at least until next time, but with that in mind can I repeat a question I asked above? I know where I can get IRFP9140, and I have two IRFP9240 in my parts box. Can I make these work? If so, is it better to use IRFP9240 for Q6 or Q3? Alternatively, is there another IR part which would be better than the 9140?
 
..... I know where I can get IRFP9140, and I have two IRFP9240 in my parts box. Can I make these work? If so, is it better to use IRFP9240 for Q6 or Q3? ...

Option a):
You have a GB flag in your profile which suggests that you have some connections there (friends, relatives). Can someone buy Fairchild parts in GB and send them to you?

Option b):
Be brave and use IRFP9240 (better choice than IRFP9140). Others did and were very satisfied. All the fuss about IR MOSFETs is actually about small frequency-dependent non-linearity in mids region which is hardly audiable at all. Far to insignificant to justify "Can I make this work?" kind of question. Off course it will work ;)
 
Option a):
You have a GB flag in your profile which suggests that you have some connections there (friends, relatives). Can someone buy Fairchild parts in GB and send them to you?

Have relatives, yes. I've also sent an e-mail to Farnell complaining, so maybe they will come up with a suggestion. (After all, it was quite possible to buy things through mail-order even before the internet, so it must be possible to get them *somehow*...) I hope one of these works out, although will probably be a bit slower.

Option b):
Be brave and use IRFP9240 (better choice than IRFP9140). Others did and were very satisfied. All the fuss about IR MOSFETs is actually about small frequency-dependent non-linearity in mids region which is hardly audiable at all. Far to insignificant to justify "Can I make this work?" kind of question. Off course it will work ;)

I'm quite willing to be brave, but I only have *two* IRFP9240, and the shop has no more. They do have IRFP9140, and plenty of other mosfets, but mostly lower-power stuff, in TO-220 cases. Even assuming that option (a) works out, I'd like to understand option (b). In fact, I may do option (b) while I wait for the Fairchild parts - can always switch them in later. But what specifically makes the IRFP9240 a better choice than IRFP9140? Is there no other substitute?

Cheers

Nigel
 
Official Court Jester
Joined 2003
Paid Member
just use 9140 ;

final differences between mentioned mosfets are lesser than all other factors involved .... quality of your source , speakers , room

finally - that's puzzle ; besides fact that is fun learning all little blocks , and ways to sum them , you can always change any part later for better , or "better" one .

for Mini - even IRF9540 class is more than enough
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.