Industrial AlephX High Power version

[Bernhard]

Re: VERRRY NICE!!!

maybe I sell those transformers, and buy other ones. The trouble is that these ones are 1000VA and the 18-0-18 I can buy are only 750VA.
Or I change the caps.
/Hugo

Netlist,

looks very nice.

If you really want to sell the transformers one day, I might be interested.

I have two 18-0-18V with 110V primaries in series, that feed my high power monolytic susy amp, they give me something like 25,5V, but idle current is only 100mA.

They are 95mm in diameter and 55mmhigh and from that I think they are 600W each.

Nelson recommends 25V rails as a minimum.
So I believe, if you use 18V transformers together with fat idle currents, it will be lower...

20V would be good ? Difficult to buy

You can find caps @ http://listings.ebay.de/aw/plistings/newtoday/all/category12069/index.html

What about the sound compared to the monolytic susy ?

You know, because of my quadruple amping I need 8 channels and can not afford the aleph(X) heat.


I also believe, You get double localisation because of a wall-mirrored sound

Also from the floor...

Another thing I would change is placement of the speakers!
They are far too near the wall on the side.

cocolino,

what would you suggest as a optimum ? As much as possible ?

 

[grataku]

Could you give me your bank account?

/Hugo

If you give me your B&W...

 

[Netlist]

Bernhard,
Great offer, but I'm afraid those trannies will be too small.
As the amp consumes so much power, and I want to stay in the safe area...but Nelsons comment on this would be appreciated.
Thanks for the link; maybe I find other caps there. I never take decisions too fast, we will see.

About the sound:
I didn't have the time to connect them to my 'big' ones, but with the speakers I normally test and know very well, the sound is impressive. I never heard my speakers play like they play with the AlephX.
There is no way to compare the sound with the monolithic amp.
That doesn't mean I'm fully satisfied. I think there is still a lot to improve.
The bass is absolutely stunning. You know, I'm always careful with 'impressive' sound.
I guess I need more time to be able to say if I like it or not.
Last year October I was at a Hi-End show in the Netherlands.
The Philips guys gave a demo of their SACD with a 5.1 surround system.
They used all B&W Nautilus 800's and each speaker was powered with a Pass-amp (don't know which one). (Yes it was hot in there).
Now, this was not impressive, but breathtaking.

What do you mean about that wall-mirrored sound? Is it about my speakers to close to the wall?
/Hugo

 

[Bernhard]

There is no way to compare the sound with the monolithic amp.


What do you mean about that wall-mirrored sound? Is it about my speakers to close to the wall?
/Hugo

Does that mean, the Aleph-X are much/little/? better ?

Is it only the bass or also the mids / highs ?

If it is only the bass, maybe the damping is better because of the parallel output fets

Hey, if you like breathtaking, you could try building plasmas

Yes, if you are too close to the wall you get a second mirrored-on-the-wall sound source which has little time delay to the speakers and might confuse imaging.

 

[Netlist]

Does that mean, the Aleph-X are much/little/? better ?

The AlephX should be much better IMHO.
The sound is not comparable with any amp I ever heard.
I repair lots of amps, the Crown K2 is one of my favourites on a big PA-system. (Not that I ever repaired a K2, I send them to the service centre when they come in)
But the sound of AlephX is warmer, balder, deeper then what I heard till now trough my speakers, which doesn't mean better. The bass is very much pronounced. That's why I can't tell you a lot about mid and high. Have to get used to it.
I ones had a Technics class A amp, a big one, who was also sounding extremely detailed and was till now the best consumer amp I heard.
Of course I still listen to the mono version and have a long way to go with listening sessions of AlepX.

A few "experts in sound" where invited in the past to listen to the B&W's in the living room. None of them was able to place the speakers in a good position and they all had their own theories. As I said, the room is nice, but not good for sound. Still, these speakers sound REEEAL good.
/Hugo

 

[Peter Daniel]

Still, these speakers sound REEEAL good.

They look real good too, a perfect match for industrial amp. And all this in Belgium, a place where industrial music comes from

 

[cocolino]

originally posted by Netlist
I had (and still have) a problem with the power supply. The caps I bought are rated 25V. The power transformer is 22-0-22 and after the bridge and caps I get 28V under load. That’s why I had to mount two series resistors after the rectifier. They spoil a huge amount of heat and mounted together with the rectifier on the alu plate, it gets too hot.

Yes, that power supply...maybe I sell those transformers, and buy other ones. The trouble is that these ones are 1000VA and the 18-0-18 I can buy are only 750VA.
Or I change the caps. Or find something else. Still don't know.

Why not buy 4 pieces 750VA trafos (2 each to replace one 1000VA) 0-18V and to use a double bridge rectifier (if You don`t have this anyway)?
And BTW: I might be interested in the caps when You decide to change them (depending of brand, type, value & last not least price) and maybe the trannies too

originally posted by Bernhard
Nelson recommends 25V rails as a minimum.
So I believe, if you use 18V transformers together with fat idle currents, it will be lower...

20V would be good ? Difficult to buy

When You just need a different secundary voltage (and not a completly individual transformer design regarding core, size, power-rating etc.), for still reasonable money (estimated 10 to 15 Euro per transformer) You can often have transformers windings custom made - even when You need only a pair of them.
Just ask at the factory - You`ll be surprised what`s all possible.

originally posted by Bernhard
cocolino,
what would you suggest as a optimum ? As much as possible ?

It`s very difficult to suggest an "optimum" without knowing more about that particular room. "As much as possible" is not very practical unless You prefer listening in the garden. I guess something around 0,7m to 1,2m would do it in most cases and for most speaker (of course that`s only a very rough estimation - it all depends about the rest of the room, the absolute placement in the room, the speaker horizontal radiation pattern ....etc.).

I understand that WAF more often than not is the biggest obstacle here and it`s really a pity because this is what can make a big difference in performance - likely much bigger than changing from a good amp to "the best" ones.

WAF - or the prevention of really good audio

 

[Bernhard]

The AlephX should be much better IMHO.
The sound is not comparable with any amp I ever heard.
But the sound of AlephX is warmer, balder, deeper then what I heard till now trough my speakers, which doesn't mean better. The bass is very much pronounced. That's why I can't tell you a lot about mid and high. Have to get used to it.
A few "experts in sound" where invited in the past to listen to the B&W's in the living room. None of them was able to place the speakers in a good position and they all had their own theories. As I said, the room is nice, but not good for sound. Still, these speakers sound REEEAL good.
/Hugo

I don't know.

If the sound is warm, is it still neutral ?

Or is there something added ?


Bald floors and walls reflect higher frequencies,starting from 1 kHz like a mirror input angle is output angle.

Make a test.

Take a big large book with a shining paper envelope, hold it beside your head vertically and turn it on the y-axis.
In a 45° angle you can hear the high frequencies coming from your book

Or exchange the book for a mirror. When you can see the speakers in the mirror, it reflects the sound to your ears - exactly: to your eyes.

You have hard direct reflections from the close floor and wall that disturb localisation.

 

[Netlist]

All those tips... I can't believe my eyes and ears. Thanks guys, I'll have a look at them tomorrow.

/Hugo - AUDIO - or the prevention of really good W(A)IF(E)

 

[cocolino]

AUDIO - or the prevention of really good W(A)IF(E)

If she can`t stand it, she can`t be really good

 

[karma]

wow

wow nice detail in the construction

 

[MikeW]

front end

Maybe you could put a grill on it like the front of a truck, then it would really be industrial. I always liked wood. It gives it some warmth. Very nice amp. Good job.

 

[Netlist]

Hi,
Nice to know that a small country like Belgium is known for his music
We have French fries too, but that has been discussed earlier and in another thread.
I'm not in a hurry to change things right now, I mean the PSU, and a few other things have to be done, since building AlephX made a mess of my workplace. But I'll come back on this later.
About the speakers and their placement: They now stand about 0.8m from each wall, but there are 3.4m of space between them. (Always measured from cone centre.)
One would expect a 'hole' in the centre when listening. That is not the problem. The lack of bass when sitting in the sweet spot is the most annoying. When walking trough the room, the best place to hear the low frequencies is standing just near the sidewalls, but that’s far away from the sweet spot. Moving the speakers closer to each other doesn’t approve things for the low region.
As I said, it’s a strange room. Picture attached.

/Hugo - She can stand it and she's really good. OOhh Yes.

 

[Bernhard]

Netlist,

it looks like your bass is pronounced more by standing waves and wall-near-speaker-positioning than by the Aleph-X

 

[Netlist]

I didn’t express myself clear enough.
The AlephX never played with the B&W800's.
When I talk about the sound of the living room, I talk in general, with different amps, but not with AlephX. Soon they will be connected to the AlephX.
For the moment the AlephX is driving B&W802’s in the workplace.
I know very well how the 802's sound with all kind of amps, but as I recall, I never heard the sound they produce now, with the AlephX.
/Hugo

 

[cocolino]

originally posted by Netlist
About the speakers and their placement: They now stand about 0.8m from each wall, but there are 3.4m of space between them. (Always measured from cone centre.)
One would expect a 'hole' in the centre when listening. That is not the problem. The lack of bass when sitting in the sweet spot is the most annoying. When walking trough the room, the best place to hear the low frequencies is standing just near the sidewalls, but that’s far away from the sweet spot. Moving the speakers closer to each other doesn’t approve things for the low region.
As I said, it’s a strange room. Picture attached.

Hugo,

that`s a huuuuuge room!
Unfortunately the proportions are indeed very strange and not very good for audio.
Once I have heard a really expensive High-End setup (in those days) with Backes&Müller (not my favourites) activ speakers in a very similar sized room and placement and it was just bad because the room acoustics spoiled everything.

Attached a picture (correct proportions - more or less) of how I would try to place them (or to begin with).
The location where the speakers are at the moment are highly unsuitable regarding three things:
- the very early reflections from the very nearby located walls
- standing waves along the long side (14m) of the room
- when I assume You sit around 3m away from the speakers in the sweetspot You`re more or less in the center of the room - no wonder that the bass is lacking there. Moving speakers more closely together can not cure this.

I fear that without a radically different placement there is not much hope to better things substantially.

I believe that it`s hardly possible to go around the standing wave thing entirely but with the proposed placement (or something similar) I bet things overall will much better already and You`d have more choice to try different locations along the long side of the room.
I don`t know if WAF or other matters of somewhat less importance (furniture for instance) would allow a permanent placement similar to the suggested - but just give it a try - takes half an hour and You know more.

She can stand it and she's really good. OOhh Yes.

You lucky guy

 

[grataku]

Cocco,
since you are redocorating, how about this?

The question is: would a different pair of speakers that could be positioned more correctly in the room sound BETTER than a badly positioned pair of 800's?

PS. If you ever watched the american football commentators you'll know why this is funny.

 

[Netlist]

Nice comments and ideas.
First, these monsters way over 150kg (300 pounds), so walking around with them is not the easiest task. (certainly more than half an hour)
Second, the proposed place by cocolino could be an option but they then stand on a wooden floor with a cavern underneath which again wouldn’t be to good for resonance. But, it could be worth trying.
An ultracurve is proposed too, but as I say moving them around is not easy.
So, the width of the room is 5m. Lets suppose we place the speakers as proposed. They should be at least 0.5m from the wall, I assume. The speakers themselves are 0.6m deep. That’s already 1.1m.
We then have 3.9m left. Counting the seat where we listen another 0.6-0.9m we would have the sweet spot in the perfect place. Hmmm…something to consider.

/Hugo – will call grataku to redecorate

 

[cocolino]

Cocco,
since you are redocorating, how about this?

Hi grataku,
Hey..... that`s just great ...actually much better than my suggestion!
How comes that I have not thought about this!?
Hugo, what do You think about this slight modification?
I believe WAF will be delighted!!!

The question is: would a different pair of speakers that could be positioned more correctly in the room sound BETTER than a badly positioned pair of 800's?

I´m convinced that a decent $2000 speaker but well placed in an optimized room beats any bad placed super-duper-ultra 20k$ speaker in a really bad room by far.
I have heard it and I have heard this 800`s in an unsuitable room at a Hifi-Show - I left the room after 3 minutes.... and in another listened & enjoyed a small 2-way system (Sonus-Faber) more than half an hour!

And no, I have no clue from American football and neither know what`s "redocorating"?

First, these monsters way over 150kg (300 pounds), so walking around with them is not the easiest task. (certainly more than half an hour)

I know, but that`s not such a big problem when the floor is even (otherwise I admit You have a problem) - use a (worn! otherwise W(AF) again...You know...) towel and put it under the speaker - You should be able to pull them (maybe with some assistance of WAF pushing) - that`s the way I move my 150kg sub - works fine (I can move it even alone this way).

Second, the proposed place by cocolino could be an option but they then stand on a wooden floor with a cavern underneath which again wouldn’t be to good for resonance. But, it could be worth trying.

Well, wooden floor might bring problems but probably another placement cures more that the wooden floor can harm.
Moreover should this placement turn out to be really better and they can stay there, another slight modifcation can help here.
Easiest way is some kind of decoupling through soft materials or more extensive as they are not too far from the wall now (I guess 1,1m baffle to wall in the back is fine) some kind of steel construction anchored in the back wall on which they can stand. Or hang them from the ceiling. Just some first ideas

So, the width of the room is 5m. Lets suppose we place the speakers as proposed. They should be at least 0.5m from the wall, I assume. The speakers themselves are 0.6m deep. That’s already 1.1m.
We then have 3.9m left. Counting the seat where we listen another 0.6-0.9m we would have the sweet spot in the perfect place. Hmmm…something to consider.

One thing is for sure - You get rid of the early reflections this way.
And as You don`t sit in the middle of the room anymore but with the wall in the back, bass should be better too.
As the wall behind You (listening position) would be a little near now (inevitable in this case - but ...You can`t always get want You want ) , also something absorbing on the wall behind You may help to avoid reflections from there (You could first experiment with a blanket or something the like).

Next step could be experimenting with some absorbers to fight standing waves if they still are a problem.........but hey that`s an Aleph-X thread .... we are in the wrong department

Anyway, when You actually try this be prepared that Your system will sound so completly different from what You`re used to that it may take a while until You can judge if this is actually better or not.

 

[Bernhard]

My room also is 5m in the short direction, and my speakers are placed 1m from the long wall, 2,50m to me and I am 1,50m from the wall behind me.

I sit in the middle of standing waves @160-180Hz, sounds terrible hollow.

God bless Ultracurve with digital input option