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Old 22nd April 2009, 08:03 AM   #11
KCCT82 is offline KCCT82  United States
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Tinitus- Hahaha, it's also written on the 1st post that we plan on building a complete PC digital crossover with the RME Fireface 800 sound card. I'm trying to achieve the shortest system chain possible, something like:

PC (all in one source, eq, delay, XO, preamp, and DA) > 10 channels of Class A amps > 10 horn loaded drivers.

Actually, the speaker system is much cheaper than 100,000 USD. From PC source to the horns the system is less than 1/4 of what you thought (yes, we saved lots of money by using Behringer XO )

BIG THANKS on the amp suggestions, if you have time please explain a little as to why. I'm a noob
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Old 22nd April 2009, 08:29 AM   #12
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally posted by KCCT82


Actually, the speaker system is much cheaper than 100,000 USD. From PC source to the horns the system is less than 1/4 of what you thought

BIG THANKS on the amp suggestions, if you have time please explain a little as to why. I'm a noob

Ok then, I thought there was a big midbass CD driver, but I see now its a cone driver
Those big Goto midbass CDs cost serious money
Maybe also you pay a lot less than they cost in EU
I shouldnt be surpriced if "mr Goto" actually doesnt have huge profit at all, but I dont doubt that the dealers have

Being a newbie its a very fine longshot with FirstWatt
Theres a lot of information in other threads, but its a marathon read
Read on Pass FirstWatt "products"
I believe Pass quotes a guy who has listened to all of them, and probably also the best summarise you will find in other threads
Maybe also read the manuals linked to each amp
F5 is new, and theres probably not much to find
Ouch
Take a look at 6moons.com archive, all FirstWatt amps are there
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Old 22nd April 2009, 01:12 PM   #13
KCCT82 is offline KCCT82  United States
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Thank you very much Tinitus! I did read First Watt manuals (like 5 times for each model) The best suggestion you made was to check out 6moons.com review, I instantly understood what the manuals were saying! (well... as far as what each designs was trying to achieve) So yeah, I agree with using F3 and F5 because umm... F1/F2 are for fullrange speakers, F4 needs an active pre... F3 would give me the slight sweetness I was looking for and perhaps F5 would have enough power to drive less sensitive midbass and provide damping, I still don't know if F5 will be powerful enough to drive my tapped horns though...

Yeah, the Goto bass compression drivers are $$$. The Goto low-mid was our limit and only because we had no other options, well you can say BMS 4591 2" CD but we didn't like the 4592 coaxials... From my discussion with Goto rep in Hong Kong it seems Mr. Goto does make good profits and less so for the rep. However, US and EU prices are WAY more expensive than Hong Kong so who knows about your side of the planet...

Regards
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Old 22nd April 2009, 02:47 PM   #14
tnargs is offline tnargs  Australia
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Keith

Congratulations on starting an expensive, complex and arcane audio project.

Our motives for choosing such a nonconformist path are varied, but it wouldn't hurt to share with us your priorities and goals for this system.

If 'uniqueness', 'wierdness' and 'namedropping' are strong attractors for you (hey none of us admit to it, but marketing research proves it's true for a large proportion of us), then don't ignore those attractors because you will become frustrated without realising why. Follow them to their conclusion.

Firstly, don't believe everything you read - not even me! If people write, in all sincerity, 'brand x is the greatest of its type', or 'technology y has inescapable sonic superiority', it has zero value in your decison tree.

Next, what is really important for your amps? I don't think that lack of NFB, or the presence of valves, or current source output stages, are important at all. I think the first important thing is loudspeaker protection, especially for those compression drivers. Avoid any designs that are going to produce turn-on or turn-off thump, input switching pulses, pass through DC offsets, or allow output failure to force DC across the drivers. Do First Watt amps pass this test?

You may need more power than 5W. It is not just a matter of efficient drivers. Fortunately for you, since you have the system running, you can work this out on a practical basis, like this:

-- EQ your system to the desired target curve. Apply full EQ, no holds barred, to get the result. Don't ignore 20Hz and 20kHz.

-- play music with a low average sound level but high dynamic range, really effing loud. Measure the peak input power to each driver.

-- Multiply the resultant power to each driver by 10 to get the minimum power for each amp. This will allow a 10dB margin.

The above criteria will set you on the path to the amps you need, not 'this sounds great' and 'these are ideal for horns' philosophies.

Let us know how you go.

cheers
Arg
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Old 22nd April 2009, 03:24 PM   #15
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First a few words of background. I am currently using a 4-way system with active crossover between the woofer and mid-bass.

A few years back I started building amps, and was positively surprised by the sound quality of the Pass design's I have built.

I have built a balanced version of the Zen 1(light) and use it on mid-bass, mid and UHF.

I have built a F5 and use it on the woofers.

I have a Zen 9 / F3 looking for a chassis in my workshop.

For your compression drivers I would recommend that you look at F1, F2, F3, Zen 4 or Zen 7. The way I read the manuals on F1/F2 they might be spot on.

For your cone drivers I would look at F5 due to the higher damping. Maybe run balanced F5 on the woofers to get more headroom.

Anyway - it is a long way from zero to five amps. Start by picking one design, make one amp and evaluate before you move on.

Have fun.
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Old 22nd April 2009, 04:16 PM   #16
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KCCT82 you need 2 x SG146BL ??? True Goto´s


br Walter
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Old 22nd April 2009, 04:56 PM   #17
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Default Hornspeaker

use babelfish


http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/4120blaudio/index.html
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Old 22nd April 2009, 05:01 PM   #18
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tinitus you mean this one ??? SG-38WNS

But you can buy in Japan by Goto direct ..you need email to contact mr.tanaka ?
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Old 22nd April 2009, 06:47 PM   #19
KCCT82 is offline KCCT82  United States
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Hello Tnargs,

Thank you very much for your comments.

Quote:
Our motives for choosing such a nonconformist path are varied, but it wouldn't hurt to share with us your priorities and goals for this system. If 'uniqueness', 'wierdness' and 'namedropping' are strong attractors for you...
Well, I'm in my twenties and not addicted to "analog" or "LP" or "tube" like a lot of the older generation. I'm used to hearing crap like compressed pop tracks and mp3's... it's funny I got into audio by hooking up my playstation to dad's ATC speakers (probably the most expensive "video game system" ) So for me digital source/manipulation is not "nonconformist". It's like using Photoshop to tweak your picture's "tonal balance" or "contrast"... I don't know if digital processing damages sound but I know in return I get to control many aspects of my system in 1 single machine. Also, I like the idea of having less machines which also means less cables/connectors. Think about it, if I solder all 10 channels of signal directly onto my power amps' circuits I can bypass a lot of connectors (and wouldn't have to give all my money to WBT)!
So what are my priorities and goals for this system? Ummm... Minimize the unnecessary and maximize the necessary. I'm eager to see how these "assumed goods" will turn out when put together in what I think is a simple manner I chose First Watt because it seems to follow the way I want to build this system... simple circuit, just enough gain, Class A, and DIYable. I'm sure you can guess the reason for horns

I'll keep the rest of your comments in mind. I'll pay attention to the problems you addressed before finalizing my selection, thanks again~
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Old 22nd April 2009, 06:53 PM   #20
KCCT82 is offline KCCT82  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by WALTER BURKHARD
tinitus you mean this one ??? SG-38WNS

But you can buy in Japan by Goto direct ..you need email to contact mr.tanaka ?
Hello Walter, for off topic discussions please go to: My DIY 5 Way Active Horn System

You can comment/ask anything GOTO in there. I'd like to keep this thread on CHOOSING AMPS.

Thanks~
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