Hello all,
My dad and I have partly completed our listening room and managed to put a 5 way active horn system together. Our next intention is to build dedicated amps for each of the 10 channels. We have no background in electronics and would really like to hear everyone's input.
Since our system is quite high in efficiency, I thought First Watt amps would be a natural choice. I've read the FW manuals 5 times and barely understood anything... what I did notice is it is for full range drivers, are they gonna do wonders for horn loaded compression drivers as well?
Let's take a look at the system as a whole first:
The room is 21' wide x 32' long x 12'6" ceiling. The horns are placed 10' away from the front wall, listening position is another 10' away from the horns which leaves about 12' behind the listening position.
The source is currently PC digital out > digital pre > 2x Behringer DCX 2496 (XO and DA duties) > 5x C-Audio 100W pro amps. We will be building a complete PC XO solution with RME Fireface 800 sound card in the future so please help me choose amps according to the sound card's 10x analog output instead of more traditional "preamp" outputs. I bring this out because I don't know whether the sound card's output will be enough to drive FW amps directly... and the whole input/output impedance thing? enough gain? the need for B1 buffer? voltage/current source?
The speakers are:
TAD ET-703 compression driver <12k-20k> (107db 8 ohms)
TAD TD-4002 compression driver on 400hz tractrix <1.9k-12k> (110db 16 ohm)
GOTO 505TT compression driver on GOTO 150hz hypex <250-1.9k> (110db 16 ohm)
TAD TL-1101H cone driver on DIY 1/2 space 53hz hypex with 5" throat <58-250> (around 103db if not more... 16 ohm)
TAD TL-1603 cone driver on DIY tapped horn <20-58> (around 95db... 8 ohm)
My initial configuration of amps based on my limited knowledge (in the above order):
Any FW Model
Any FW Model
Any FW Model
F4 (because I need some damping factor? a little more Watts?)
N/A or Bridged?
As for the sound we're looking for... clean high and mid with a touch of sweetness, solid midbass, and enough power to work tapped horn's magic.
Thanks all!
My dad and I have partly completed our listening room and managed to put a 5 way active horn system together. Our next intention is to build dedicated amps for each of the 10 channels. We have no background in electronics and would really like to hear everyone's input.
Since our system is quite high in efficiency, I thought First Watt amps would be a natural choice. I've read the FW manuals 5 times and barely understood anything... what I did notice is it is for full range drivers, are they gonna do wonders for horn loaded compression drivers as well?
Let's take a look at the system as a whole first:
The room is 21' wide x 32' long x 12'6" ceiling. The horns are placed 10' away from the front wall, listening position is another 10' away from the horns which leaves about 12' behind the listening position.
The source is currently PC digital out > digital pre > 2x Behringer DCX 2496 (XO and DA duties) > 5x C-Audio 100W pro amps. We will be building a complete PC XO solution with RME Fireface 800 sound card in the future so please help me choose amps according to the sound card's 10x analog output instead of more traditional "preamp" outputs. I bring this out because I don't know whether the sound card's output will be enough to drive FW amps directly... and the whole input/output impedance thing? enough gain? the need for B1 buffer? voltage/current source?
The speakers are:
TAD ET-703 compression driver <12k-20k> (107db 8 ohms)
TAD TD-4002 compression driver on 400hz tractrix <1.9k-12k> (110db 16 ohm)
GOTO 505TT compression driver on GOTO 150hz hypex <250-1.9k> (110db 16 ohm)
TAD TL-1101H cone driver on DIY 1/2 space 53hz hypex with 5" throat <58-250> (around 103db if not more... 16 ohm)
TAD TL-1603 cone driver on DIY tapped horn <20-58> (around 95db... 8 ohm)
My initial configuration of amps based on my limited knowledge (in the above order):
Any FW Model
Any FW Model
Any FW Model
F4 (because I need some damping factor? a little more Watts?)
N/A or Bridged?
As for the sound we're looking for... clean high and mid with a touch of sweetness, solid midbass, and enough power to work tapped horn's magic.
Thanks all!
Attachments
I like the horns one of my speakers is a back loaded horn. It has some peaks in it I need to tame. The Pass F4 sounds a little to hygienic, the SETs a little muddy on congested music. I may try the trick of driving the F4 with SET and see if that makes the horn sing a little better. I would like to make more horns if I ever had the space, I guess you could say I have a little horn envy.
Bill
Bill
Wirewiggler- thanks for the comments on F4 and SET. Maybe it's a little hard to tell, but yeah I like horns too 
WALTER BURKHARD- I used Hornresp and exported my design. After that I plotted the curves on paper and cut plywood according to paper templates. The Goto original drawing sounds interesting, let's discuss more over at: My DIY 5 Way Active Horn System
WALTER BURKHARD- I used Hornresp and exported my design. After that I plotted the curves on paper and cut plywood according to paper templates. The Goto original drawing sounds interesting, let's discuss more over at: My DIY 5 Way Active Horn System
KCCT82 said:
A 100.000USD speaker system and then use Behringer xo
Should I choose a FirstWatt amp it would surely be the Jfet F3 or the new F5, without knowing much about it
Fore you maybe a mix of the two
I dont remember how, but you may need to do something about the gain and noise on Behringer
Tinitus- Hahaha, it's also written on the 1st post that we plan on building a complete PC digital crossover with the RME Fireface 800 sound card. I'm trying to achieve the shortest system chain possible, something like:
PC (all in one source, eq, delay, XO, preamp, and DA) > 10 channels of Class A amps > 10 horn loaded drivers.
Actually, the speaker system is much cheaper than 100,000 USD. From PC source to the horns the system is less than 1/4 of what you thought (yes, we saved lots of money by using Behringer XO
)
BIG THANKS on the amp suggestions, if you have time please explain a little as to why. I'm a noob
PC (all in one source, eq, delay, XO, preamp, and DA) > 10 channels of Class A amps > 10 horn loaded drivers.
Actually, the speaker system is much cheaper than 100,000 USD. From PC source to the horns the system is less than 1/4 of what you thought (yes, we saved lots of money by using Behringer XO
)BIG THANKS on the amp suggestions, if you have time please explain a little as to why. I'm a noob
KCCT82 said:
Actually, the speaker system is much cheaper than 100,000 USD. From PC source to the horns the system is less than 1/4 of what you thought
BIG THANKS on the amp suggestions, if you have time please explain a little as to why. I'm a noob
Ok then, I thought there was a big midbass CD driver, but I see now its a cone driver
Those big Goto midbass CDs cost serious money
Maybe also you pay a lot less than they cost in EU
I shouldnt be surpriced if "mr Goto" actually doesnt have huge profit at all, but I dont doubt that the dealers have
Being a newbie its a very fine longshot with FirstWatt
Theres a lot of information in other threads, but its a marathon read
Read on Pass FirstWatt "products"
I believe Pass quotes a guy who has listened to all of them, and probably also the best summarise you will find in other threads
Maybe also read the manuals linked to each amp
F5 is new, and theres probably not much to find
Ouch
Take a look at 6moons.com archive, all FirstWatt amps are there
Thank you very much Tinitus! I did read First Watt manuals (like 5 times for each model) The best suggestion you made was to check out 6moons.com review, I instantly understood what the manuals were saying! (well... as far as what each designs was trying to achieve) So yeah, I agree with using F3 and F5 because umm... F1/F2 are for fullrange speakers, F4 needs an active pre... F3 would give me the slight sweetness I was looking for and perhaps F5 would have enough power to drive less sensitive midbass and provide damping, I still don't know if F5 will be powerful enough to drive my tapped horns though...
Yeah, the Goto bass compression drivers are $$$. The Goto low-mid was our limit and only because we had no other options, well you can say BMS 4591 2" CD but we didn't like the 4592 coaxials... From my discussion with Goto rep in Hong Kong it seems Mr. Goto does make good profits and less so for the rep. However, US and EU prices are WAY more expensive than Hong Kong so who knows about your side of the planet...
Regards
Yeah, the Goto bass compression drivers are $$$. The Goto low-mid was our limit and only because we had no other options, well you can say BMS 4591 2" CD but we didn't like the 4592 coaxials... From my discussion with Goto rep in Hong Kong it seems Mr. Goto does make good profits and less so for the rep. However, US and EU prices are WAY more expensive than Hong Kong so who knows about your side of the planet...
Regards
Keith
Congratulations on starting an expensive, complex and arcane audio project.
Our motives for choosing such a nonconformist path are varied, but it wouldn't hurt to share with us your priorities and goals for this system.
If 'uniqueness', 'wierdness' and 'namedropping' are strong attractors for you (hey none of us admit to it, but marketing research proves it's true for a large proportion of us), then don't ignore those attractors because you will become frustrated without realising why. Follow them to their conclusion.
Firstly, don't believe everything you read - not even me! If people write, in all sincerity, 'brand x is the greatest of its type', or 'technology y has inescapable sonic superiority', it has zero value in your decison tree.
Next, what is really important for your amps? I don't think that lack of NFB, or the presence of valves, or current source output stages, are important at all. I think the first important thing is loudspeaker protection, especially for those compression drivers. Avoid any designs that are going to produce turn-on or turn-off thump, input switching pulses, pass through DC offsets, or allow output failure to force DC across the drivers. Do First Watt amps pass this test?
You may need more power than 5W. It is not just a matter of efficient drivers. Fortunately for you, since you have the system running, you can work this out on a practical basis, like this:
-- EQ your system to the desired target curve. Apply full EQ, no holds barred, to get the result. Don't ignore 20Hz and 20kHz.
-- play music with a low average sound level but high dynamic range, really effing loud. Measure the peak input power to each driver.
-- Multiply the resultant power to each driver by 10 to get the minimum power for each amp. This will allow a 10dB margin.
The above criteria will set you on the path to the amps you need, not 'this sounds great' and 'these are ideal for horns' philosophies.
Let us know how you go.
cheers
Arg
Congratulations on starting an expensive, complex and arcane audio project.
Our motives for choosing such a nonconformist path are varied, but it wouldn't hurt to share with us your priorities and goals for this system.
If 'uniqueness', 'wierdness' and 'namedropping' are strong attractors for you (hey none of us admit to it, but marketing research proves it's true for a large proportion of us), then don't ignore those attractors because you will become frustrated without realising why. Follow them to their conclusion.
Firstly, don't believe everything you read - not even me! If people write, in all sincerity, 'brand x is the greatest of its type', or 'technology y has inescapable sonic superiority', it has zero value in your decison tree.
Next, what is really important for your amps? I don't think that lack of NFB, or the presence of valves, or current source output stages, are important at all. I think the first important thing is loudspeaker protection, especially for those compression drivers. Avoid any designs that are going to produce turn-on or turn-off thump, input switching pulses, pass through DC offsets, or allow output failure to force DC across the drivers. Do First Watt amps pass this test?
You may need more power than 5W. It is not just a matter of efficient drivers. Fortunately for you, since you have the system running, you can work this out on a practical basis, like this:
-- EQ your system to the desired target curve. Apply full EQ, no holds barred, to get the result. Don't ignore 20Hz and 20kHz.
-- play music with a low average sound level but high dynamic range, really effing loud. Measure the peak input power to each driver.
-- Multiply the resultant power to each driver by 10 to get the minimum power for each amp. This will allow a 10dB margin.
The above criteria will set you on the path to the amps you need, not 'this sounds great' and 'these are ideal for horns' philosophies.
Let us know how you go.
cheers
Arg
First a few words of background. I am currently using a 4-way system with active crossover between the woofer and mid-bass.
A few years back I started building amps, and was positively surprised by the sound quality of the Pass design's I have built.
I have built a balanced version of the Zen 1(light) and use it on mid-bass, mid and UHF.
I have built a F5 and use it on the woofers.
I have a Zen 9 / F3 looking for a chassis in my workshop.
For your compression drivers I would recommend that you look at F1, F2, F3, Zen 4 or Zen 7. The way I read the manuals on F1/F2 they might be spot on.
For your cone drivers I would look at F5 due to the higher damping. Maybe run balanced F5 on the woofers to get more headroom.
Anyway - it is a long way from zero to five amps. Start by picking one design, make one amp and evaluate before you move on.
Have fun.
A few years back I started building amps, and was positively surprised by the sound quality of the Pass design's I have built.
I have built a balanced version of the Zen 1(light) and use it on mid-bass, mid and UHF.
I have built a F5 and use it on the woofers.
I have a Zen 9 / F3 looking for a chassis in my workshop.
For your compression drivers I would recommend that you look at F1, F2, F3, Zen 4 or Zen 7. The way I read the manuals on F1/F2 they might be spot on.
For your cone drivers I would look at F5 due to the higher damping. Maybe run balanced F5 on the woofers to get more headroom.
Anyway - it is a long way from zero to five amps. Start by picking one design, make one amp and evaluate before you move on.
Have fun.
Hello Tnargs,
Thank you very much for your comments.
Well, I'm in my twenties and not addicted to "analog" or "LP" or "tube" like a lot of the older generation. I'm used to hearing crap like compressed pop tracks and mp3's... it's funny I got into audio by hooking up my playstation to dad's ATC speakers (probably the most expensive "video game system" ) So for me digital source/manipulation is not "nonconformist". It's like using Photoshop to tweak your picture's "tonal balance" or "contrast"... I don't know if digital processing damages sound but I know in return I get to control many aspects of my system in 1 single machine. Also, I like the idea of having less machines which also means less cables/connectors. Think about it, if I solder all 10 channels of signal directly onto my power amps' circuits I can bypass a lot of connectors (and wouldn't have to give all my money to WBT)!
So what are my priorities and goals for this system? Ummm... Minimize the unnecessary and maximize the necessary. I'm eager to see how these "assumed goods" will turn out when put together in what I think is a simple manner I chose First Watt because it seems to follow the way I want to build this system... simple circuit, just enough gain, Class A, and DIYable. I'm sure you can guess the reason for horns
I'll keep the rest of your comments in mind. I'll pay attention to the problems you addressed before finalizing my selection, thanks again~
Thank you very much for your comments.
Well, I'm in my twenties and not addicted to "analog" or "LP" or "tube" like a lot of the older generation. I'm used to hearing crap like compressed pop tracks and mp3's... it's funny I got into audio by hooking up my playstation to dad's ATC speakers (probably the most expensive "video game system"
) So for me digital source/manipulation is not "nonconformist". It's like using Photoshop to tweak your picture's "tonal balance" or "contrast"... I don't know if digital processing damages sound but I know in return I get to control many aspects of my system in 1 single machine. Also, I like the idea of having less machines which also means less cables/connectors. Think about it, if I solder all 10 channels of signal directly onto my power amps' circuits I can bypass a lot of connectors (and wouldn't have to give all my money to WBT)! So what are my priorities and goals for this system? Ummm... Minimize the unnecessary and maximize the necessary. I'm eager to see how these "assumed goods" will turn out when put together in what I think is a simple manner
I chose First Watt because it seems to follow the way I want to build this system... simple circuit, just enough gain, Class A, and DIYable. I'm sure you can guess the reason for horns I'll keep the rest of your comments in mind. I'll pay attention to the problems you addressed before finalizing my selection, thanks again~
WALTER BURKHARD said:tinitus you mean this one ??? SG-38WNS
But you can buy in Japan by Goto direct ..you need email to contact mr.tanaka ?
Hello Walter, for off topic discussions please go to: My DIY 5 Way Active Horn System
You can comment/ask anything GOTO in there. I'd like to keep this thread on CHOOSING AMPS.
Thanks~
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