AndrewT said:
Please consider me to be a non native english speaker. That said, I do my best to be clear and if my words would be interpreted in a wrong way I apologise for that.
I only referred to the post of cyxg in which a member talks about trying various caps. In that context I pointed out that "the best cap is no cap" in conjunction with the variety of last posts about the "symmetrical B1" ( if that can still be called a B1 ).
I asked the mods to separate the posts regarding "symmetrical B1" to a new thread to avoid further miscommunication.
jean-paul said:
Don't worry... Almost every one of those poster's were jumping right over the meaning to continue to be right...
I if no cap great! 
If you have to include one for what ever purpose, that would probably be not quite as good!
If you have to make sure someone's post is not like you feel it should be?
Sorry, just my 2C
I don't agree with the "don't worry" sentiment.
We already have far too many circuits that miss out important components because some wayward designer thought he didn't need them.
Then we have complete beginners and to those must be added the obstinate few who refuse to learn, that insist on believing all the rubbish about less sounds better, irrespective of the consequences.
Just look at some of the chipamp implementations to see how bad this misguided philosophy can become.
Please don't continue this idea that "no cap is best cap" without the conditions that must exist to allow it to become a valid conclusion.
We already have far too many circuits that miss out important components because some wayward designer thought he didn't need them.
Then we have complete beginners and to those must be added the obstinate few who refuse to learn, that insist on believing all the rubbish about less sounds better, irrespective of the consequences.
Just look at some of the chipamp implementations to see how bad this misguided philosophy can become.
Please don't continue this idea that "no cap is best cap" without the conditions that must exist to allow it to become a valid conclusion.
Andrew, the conditions for not using the caps have been discussed elsewhere in this thread. The "symmetrical B1" is a version from Salas which has many advantages over the standard version considering most amps already having input caps and most cdplayers, tuners etc. have output caps. If one decides to build a symmetrical B1 one should read all info he/she can get in this thread.
If the builder does not know if the equipment he/she is going to connect he/she better not start building this version. For building this version somewhat more experience is needed.
As La ode showed the symmetrical B1 in his case only had a few mV offset. My proposal was to add an output cap for DC coupled amps that can be jumpered in case the amp has an input cap. This to avoid problems and to make the design more versatile. Anyway, when used with the right equipment 2 caps per channel can be omitted with this design which can only make things better instead of worse.
I do not see your problem with making a fine design even more refined. I think Nelson would encourage such actions. As can be seen from his designs "less is more" is his motto ( but not too less....) . If you wish to call it rubbish, those are your words. Furthermore it is pretty childish to continue with wordplay with foreigners that have to communicate in english.
Also it seems those that have made a symmetrical version only liked it better than the original version which is a big bonus and will encourage more people to try it out.
If the builder does not know if the equipment he/she is going to connect he/she better not start building this version. For building this version somewhat more experience is needed.
As La ode showed the symmetrical B1 in his case only had a few mV offset. My proposal was to add an output cap for DC coupled amps that can be jumpered in case the amp has an input cap. This to avoid problems and to make the design more versatile. Anyway, when used with the right equipment 2 caps per channel can be omitted with this design which can only make things better instead of worse.
I do not see your problem with making a fine design even more refined. I think Nelson would encourage such actions. As can be seen from his designs "less is more" is his motto ( but not too less....) . If you wish to call it rubbish, those are your words. Furthermore it is pretty childish to continue with wordplay with foreigners that have to communicate in english.
Also it seems those that have made a symmetrical version only liked it better than the original version which is a big bonus and will encourage more people to try it out.
AndrewT said:
Read what I said again.jean-paul said:
If you want to use the less is more then you must know what you are doing.
Nelson Pass knows more than I will ever know about circuits and designing and sound quality and what needs to be done and what can be safely omitted.
I never said "call it rubbish" and those are not my words.
I hold Nelson and his writing in the highest esteem. I read and have read much of his published work over the past 15years and will continue to do so.
The problem is that you and some others make a statement that can only be true in a few circumstances.
You and those others should learn to be as accurate as Nelson and the other experts on this Forum and elsewhere can be when offering advice.
Less can be more. But it's limitations must be defined for those that don't have sufficient knowledge to sift the wheat from the chaff.
The internet is already overloaded with chaff, don't exacerbate it.
Notes on symmetric B1
1. By trimming the supplies a bit non symmetric, the output offset falls to either zero or under half mV, steady. It counteracts naturally non perfectly alike JFET pairs.
2. If the applications situation can be non safe (general tests use with possibility of unknown non DC offset checked sources?), an input capacitor only can be used. It will be small value and can be even Teflon and rather affordable. That will obviously guard against most of the danger scenarios and will still be cheaper and more transparent than having an additional big output quality cap. The DC coupled output will not deviate to non safe, unless one psu ceases when in service, or the input resistor to ground is not used and a pot becomes dodgy. Always use that resistor, does good to the pot's transparency too. Hence, a non issue.
3. Each one to his own risks. Situation is well reviewed.
4. Benefits are: Much cheaper, audibly more neutral, more compact.
5. Risks are: If you are not careful and there is no input capacitor in your power amplifier, or DC output sensor and relay, you can burn woofers, if you connect a source device with much DC offset, or one symmetric B1 supply fails during service. Be warned.
1. By trimming the supplies a bit non symmetric, the output offset falls to either zero or under half mV, steady. It counteracts naturally non perfectly alike JFET pairs.
2. If the applications situation can be non safe (general tests use with possibility of unknown non DC offset checked sources?), an input capacitor only can be used. It will be small value and can be even Teflon and rather affordable. That will obviously guard against most of the danger scenarios and will still be cheaper and more transparent than having an additional big output quality cap. The DC coupled output will not deviate to non safe, unless one psu ceases when in service, or the input resistor to ground is not used and a pot becomes dodgy. Always use that resistor, does good to the pot's transparency too. Hence, a non issue.
3. Each one to his own risks. Situation is well reviewed.
4. Benefits are: Much cheaper, audibly more neutral, more compact.
5. Risks are: If you are not careful and there is no input capacitor in your power amplifier, or DC output sensor and relay, you can burn woofers, if you connect a source device with much DC offset, or one symmetric B1 supply fails during service. Be warned.
Thanks a lot for pointing this out Salas !
The scenario in Point 5 can be avoided by advising folks that have DC coupled amps to include the 10 uF cap in the output of "symmetrical B1" just to avoid risks.
AndrewT: "deliberating misleading", "stipulated", "divulged", "exacerbate", "sift", "chaff". I don't know where my english-dutch dictionary is otherwise I would have searched for the meaning of your constructive comments. I guess I better spend my time on the B1 design.
The scenario in Point 5 can be avoided by advising folks that have DC coupled amps to include the 10 uF cap in the output of "symmetrical B1" just to avoid risks.
AndrewT: "deliberating misleading", "stipulated", "divulged", "exacerbate", "sift", "chaff". I don't know where my english-dutch dictionary is otherwise I would have searched for the meaning of your constructive comments. I guess I better spend my time on the B1 design.
heh
fuss without good reason ?
long way , in few first pages of thread I posted symmetrical version http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1569192#post1569192 , we discussed a little , later Salas posted version with trimmed neg leg of PSU instead trimpots in source(s) , and these wheel reinventing schematics and related posts were pretty good in explaining possible gains and drawbacks .
"best cap is no cap" is general truth , exactly as "mine is bigger than yours" ......
.... only in some circumstances .....
splitting hairs about that is unnecessary , especially taking in account that some newbie can jump and make damage to own equipment .
if some newbie is so jumpy to make such stupidity , without proper prepare in tricks & tips - that's his own stupidity , but possible damage is still much less than jeopardy of lethal shock with mains voltage .
so - we can extend that all the way , and forbid any DIY forum - chatting even about opening any mains equipped gadget is dangerous per se
fuss without good reason ?
long way , in few first pages of thread I posted symmetrical version http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1569192#post1569192 , we discussed a little , later Salas posted version with trimmed neg leg of PSU instead trimpots in source(s) , and these wheel reinventing schematics and related posts were pretty good in explaining possible gains and drawbacks .
"best cap is no cap" is general truth , exactly as "mine is bigger than yours" ......
.... only in some circumstances .....
splitting hairs about that is unnecessary , especially taking in account that some newbie can jump and make damage to own equipment .
if some newbie is so jumpy to make such stupidity , without proper prepare in tricks & tips - that's his own stupidity , but possible damage is still much less than jeopardy of lethal shock with mains voltage .
so - we can extend that all the way , and forbid any DIY forum - chatting even about opening any mains equipped gadget is dangerous per se
jean-paul said:
To be clear, I generally don't try to make the ultimate statement on
a design in any DIY effort. I prefer to offer something that encourages
beginners to "step up to the plate".
This leaves lots of opportunity for improvement, and draws in the more
technically sophisticated and special component cults.
Nelson Pass said:
This leaves lots of opportunity for improvement, and draws in the more
technically sophisticated and special component cults.
I see you do not mind the first group at all so I guess the symmetric B1 has your blessing. I do sense a negative sentiment against the second group. Am I right ? What is the point against special components ? And what parts fall under that particular group ? MKP sounds and measures beter than MKT etc. DC coupled often sounds better than AC coupled within the discussed boundaries etc. We passed that points didn't we ? I had the same thoughts about Black Gate until I tried NX and N series HiQ caps. I wish I could still buy those.
Sometimes "standard" parts can become "special" too like Tripath TA2020 chips. If it sounds better in my ears repeatedly it is better for me (for what its worth). We are in the end of times for serious audio. The last group of dinosaurs that like good audio. Let us have our BG, MKP, Dale, Kiwame etc. pleasures before even standard parts become unobtainable for individuals and we all have to listen to 128 kbit MP3, DAB etc.
Babowana said:
Black Gate advocates . . .
Computer grade cap advocates . . .
Nude cap advocates . . .
My religion? I don't have yet.
I'm reading "Come Be My Light"--Mother Teresa . . .
No cap advocates.....
